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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

R4 Front Row - Eric Gill + JK Rowling

68 replies

lanadelgrey · 24/03/2022 21:58

Did anyone else hear tonight’s edition?
Tom Surcliffe discussing a book about morality and art - Drawing the Line by Erich Hatala Matthes, US philosopher. Really poor as a bit of discussion about can you listen to R Kelley, then Sutcliffe mentioned Eric Gill who the interviewee clearly knew nothing about nor had apparently heard of and after that she who should not be named and her views in trans issues plus mention of Daniel Radcliffe saying you can still love the message.
It was a v poor interview but worse was Sutcliffe completely mischaracterising JKR as being concerned about trans issues rather than women’s rights and stating I’m not quite so many words that she is transphobic. Interviewee obvs happy with this. It is being presented as accepted fact, not matter if debate and rolling JKR in with Kelley, convicted, Gill accepted pardophile and Hitler who also got a mention for his art.
Worth complaining about? Especially in the light of WORIADs?

OP posts:
Polyanthus2 · 01/04/2022 20:17

That was a fast response - they must have received a load of complaints.

nauticant · 01/04/2022 21:19

As I heard it Roger Bolton was saying that this was a matter that concerned people in general, both men and women. To counter a commonly used dismissive argument that the issue is a niche view for some women.

partystress · 01/04/2022 22:38

What RB said was, “[yes] it is a minefield, and it is a particular minefield for men, especially older men”.

I just think there is a real lack of awareness of the hounding and abuse women get when they talk about ‘sex and gender issues’. The irony of saying it’s particularly hard for men to talk about it, when the item being discussed was a woman author and philanthropist being cancelled for having written about it, is almost unbelievable.

However, I do appreciate the attempt to right a wrong in inviting TS on and welcomed his acknowledgment.

Toseland · 02/04/2022 09:12

This is being reported in the Daily Mail www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10678187/Row-BBC-Radio-4-presenter-brackets-JK-Rowling-alongside-sex-offenders-R-Kelly-Eric-Gill.html “The Harry Potter author has been repeatedly attacked by trans activists for her defence of women's rights.”
Women’s rights! Wow that wording - so nice to hear it put that way!

FrancescaContini · 02/04/2022 09:27

I’m absolutely sick of the continuing negative public script surrounding JKR. I don’t believe anyone who maintains this stance towards her has ever bothered to read what she said TWO YEARS AGO.

Whilst I can just about understand a dim-witted teen who’s never read anything more challenging than posts on Instagram going along with this knee-jerk “oh yeah JKR is so MEAN to trans people cos she said only women have periods”, I cannot for the life of me get my head around an editorial team at Radio 4 - who, I would hope, have some capacity for critical thinking - endorsing the Instagram teen stance.

Shame on Radio 4, and shame on other “quality” broadcast journalists who perpetuate this knee-jerk, dim-witted stance.

Flowers for JKR, as always.

HotCrossMocha · 02/04/2022 10:04

“oh yeah JKR is so MEAN to trans people cos she said only women have periods”

I don't think teens get as far as giving that as a reason even! Most of them I come across just take it as a given that she hates trans people and is unfair to them and says all kinds of awful stuff about them. They don't read any of it, apart from maybe some article from Glamour or something that supposedly explains how she is a transphobe, and only then if people seem clueless. Otherwise it's just taken as a total fact.

I wonder if part of the problem is that those who are GC tend to be older and less involved in social media. There is just so much - hundreds of facebook pages, let alone all the insta stuff, with cartoons, posts, memes etc that are so easy to read and share. Lots of manga characters and other teen friendly things, and it just gets repeatedly shared. Sometimes the pages share decent content about other topics, to draw people in, and then meanwhile fill their heads with trans-memes that are inaccurate (a bit like Britain First did - occasional decent points, and then pages full of racist rubbish once people liked their page). Creating manga illustrations, cartoons, memes etc seems to be a full time hobby for some of them, and then they get shared so much by supporters, or even people who just want to seem non-bigoted - and of course facebook's algorithms then direct even more of the same content their way. I've seen loads of it, despite never knowingly clicking on it - mostly because I think others on my feed may be subscribers. There are lots who like Harry Potter stuff, so they also easily get sucked into the trans stuff as a result, again by the algorithms, and they just believe what these endless cartoons and posts are telling them.

In contrast, I've never seen GC memes, cartoons, etc in the same way, only well-written and researched articles that nobody would really share as a quick thing on social media. And not with manga characters!!

We need more teens on this.

KittenKong · 02/04/2022 10:32

I think teen girls are getting it. They are getting fed up of being second fiddle to male teens who ‘act as if’ they are girls, and say thinks like ‘I have my period’. They are the centre of attention when a few terms ago they may well have been the guy that the boys bullies and the girls giggled at. Sympathy will only go so far.

They are getting fed up of it being ‘allowed’ to say they don’t feel comfortable in mixes sex areas, and the mental gymnastics of remembering pronouns or trying to understand how a person with a penis is a woman. I must be exhausting to feel so uncomfortable all the time in case you say the wrong think or think the wrong thought. And being told how hard it is for these people - teenagers have it hard enough without being told to disbelieve their eyes.

FrancescaContini · 02/04/2022 11:02

The teen girls I know most definitely get it and have done so for a long time. Eyes roll all over the place and zero patience for attention seekers.

Polyanthus2 · 02/04/2022 11:50

Erich Hatala Matthes is an American philosopher - his book is highly lauded by the luvvies if you look at the reviews but I suspect it isn't groundbreaking - there is a nice critical review giving it 1 star on amazon.co.uk Grin www.amazon.co.uk/Drawing-Line-Immoral-Artists-Museums/dp/019753757X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&crid=19DZGXD37XH6F&keywords=erich+hatala+matthes&sprefix=erich+hatal%2Cstripbooks%2C111&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1648896573&sr=1-1#customerReviews
A debate he was in...... (probably to gain attention for his book) www.wellesley.edu/news/2021/stories/node/192706

I doubt he knows anything about JKR except she wrote the books and spoke out to support women but he probably is happy to take Twitters' version of her and go with the flow. He won't know anything about her other generous charitable donations etc etc
We in the UK know all this so are offended by the biased comments.

HotCrossMocha · 02/04/2022 12:36

Good to hear that teenagers are become more aware.

the ones I know - maybe not all teenagers now, young adults, 16-25 - are still very into the 'JKR is bad' narrative, trans is everything, acceptance is everything, be anyone you want to be and don't listen to anyone else

KittenKong · 02/04/2022 12:43

I work with a load of mid 20s to mid 30s and they get it!

FrancescaContini · 02/04/2022 12:45

@HotCrossMocha

Good to hear that teenagers are become more aware.

the ones I know - maybe not all teenagers now, young adults, 16-25 - are still very into the 'JKR is bad' narrative, trans is everything, acceptance is everything, be anyone you want to be and don't listen to anyone else

Are some of them a little “hard of thinking”??
HotCrossMocha · 02/04/2022 12:55

Mostly superficial thinking I think. Lots of facebook pages - trans army seems to be popular - that then give them more and more of the same, and if everyone is sharing things saying JKR is bad, they seem to believe it. Possibly used to being told things about authors at school, and perhaps not confident enough to think they could make their own decision? I don't know. Just seems an accepted fact amongst them, and it hasn't occurred to them to be critical of it, I guess.

Datun · 02/04/2022 13:32

@Polyanthus2

That was a fast response - they must have received a load of complaints.
I wonder if JK herself complained. Behind the scenes. She's taken action before. And it would be a good move to not publicise it.

Since she's really nailed her colours to the mast, people won't be surprised. She's already above the parapet.

It would be beneficial to challenge defamatory stuff. Especially if it's effecting teens online.

I don't see a downside to taking confidential legal action?

Datun · 02/04/2022 13:33

*affecting

SwissBall · 02/04/2022 22:54

From my recollection the author was really waffly and I don’t remember him really responding negatively in a direct way about JKR, I was more annoyed with Tom Sutcliffe repeatedly coming back to JKR and equating her with the others. But I could do with another listen. Agree about Radio 4 though, it’s bloody Front Row not Newsround.

siucra · 03/04/2022 14:19

I actually complained to the BBC specifically about this item which left me dismayed. I love Front Row but thought this interview was just dreadful. Samira wouldn’t have been this crap. Here is my response:

Thank you getting in touch about last week’s discussion of cancel culture on Front Row which I appreciate you were not happy with.

As you know, Tom Sutcliffe was interviewing a philosopher of art called Erich Hatala Matthes who has written a book on this subject. We chose three examples to discuss, one that isn’t in the book but relates directly to the BBC and an ongoing news story (Eric Gill) and two who are cited in the book (R Kelly and JK Rowling).

It is a matter of public record that JK Rowling has been the subject of criticism from some quarters over her views on the trans debate. Tom pointed this out with no agenda.

Tom specifically drew the distinction between people who have committed crimes (Gill and Kelly) and people whose views some people find objectionable, and questioned whether those two groups should receive the same treatment. The conclusion was that they shouldn’t. When it came to describing the reaction to JK Rowling’s opinions, Tom was impartially reporting the views of some others, rather than expressing a view he himself or the BBC holds. However we acknowledge that some of the language Tom used on this point could have been clearer in this nuanced conversation.

Finally thank you again for taking the trouble to get in touch. Maintaining a dialogue with our listeners is important to us and I do hope you will continue to give your valued attention to the programme.

Kind regards,
Front Row

BBC Complaints Team
www.bbc.co.uk/complaints

RoyalCorgi · 03/04/2022 18:20

Tom specifically drew the distinction between people who have committed crimes (Gill and Kelly) and people whose views some people find objectionable, and questioned whether those two groups should receive the same treatment.

This is so exasperating, because everyone in the world holds some views that others find objectionable. That's in the nature of being alive. I expect Tom Sutcliffe has some views that I would find objectionable. If you start finding ways to cancel and/or punish people whose views some high-minded people don't like, then you cancel more or less everyone. It's idiotic.

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