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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nominee for the Supreme Court of the USA can't define what a woman is

38 replies

GoodnessTruthBeauty · 23/03/2022 14:26

For anyone that said the fights over Gender Ideology were a storm in a teacup and no big deal, we now have a female judge nominated for the most powerful national Court in the world who refuses to define what a woman is.
m.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/mar/22/ketanji-brown-jackson-says-she-cant-provide-defini/

OP posts:
IvyTwines · 24/03/2022 08:18

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Floisme · 24/03/2022 08:57

Somehow I find it even more depressing that a Supreme Court nominees claims you have to be a biologist to know what a woman is and, instead of laughing her out of court, we scrutinise her words for signs of something positive.

AeroMocha · 24/03/2022 09:18

Actually I thought "I'm not a biologist" was quite a sensible answer.

Most of us who are not thoroughly immersed in the debate have never really thought about exactly how one defines a word like woman, really. We just know we are and have always been and always will be. It isn't something that most of us ever think about putting into words.

And then when you start to become aware of the whole debate and the minefield around what exactly you say, you realise that this is somehow going to be seen as a 'trick' question. You don't want to mention physical attributes/organs, because some might not have them, you don't want to get into hormones, same sort of thing, etc - those sorts of things are fraught with difficulty. And just saying 'adult human female' sounds simplistic ,because you'd expect that the person would then say 'ok, define female' - it sounds like they are asking for a specific biological definition, how can you tell exactly, etc. And for a lot of people, they wouldn't really know.

Of course someone in her position should know that it's a huge debate at the moment and probably have prepared something to say.

But I do think that some people who are really immersed in the debate have lost sight of what the average person probably thinks if they're asked to define a woman. It just seems like such a bizarre question that many might not know how to answer - female seems too simplistic, since for most people, it just means the same as woman, and thus is circular. And beyond that, you might have to get into some very specific biological facts, and they wouldn't want to claim to be an expert in that either. And for normal day-to-day purposes, it just isn't something that needs definining!

So I have sympathy (to an extent) for someone finding that question difficult. I'd probably flounder if I was asked that question too, wondering what on earth the questioner was actually after and what hidden meanings there were.

WalrusSubmarine · 24/03/2022 09:25

It’s getting people talking at least.

Clymene · 24/03/2022 09:30

@AeroMocha

Actually I thought "I'm not a biologist" was quite a sensible answer.

Most of us who are not thoroughly immersed in the debate have never really thought about exactly how one defines a word like woman, really. We just know we are and have always been and always will be. It isn't something that most of us ever think about putting into words.

And then when you start to become aware of the whole debate and the minefield around what exactly you say, you realise that this is somehow going to be seen as a 'trick' question. You don't want to mention physical attributes/organs, because some might not have them, you don't want to get into hormones, same sort of thing, etc - those sorts of things are fraught with difficulty. And just saying 'adult human female' sounds simplistic ,because you'd expect that the person would then say 'ok, define female' - it sounds like they are asking for a specific biological definition, how can you tell exactly, etc. And for a lot of people, they wouldn't really know.

Of course someone in her position should know that it's a huge debate at the moment and probably have prepared something to say.

But I do think that some people who are really immersed in the debate have lost sight of what the average person probably thinks if they're asked to define a woman. It just seems like such a bizarre question that many might not know how to answer - female seems too simplistic, since for most people, it just means the same as woman, and thus is circular. And beyond that, you might have to get into some very specific biological facts, and they wouldn't want to claim to be an expert in that either. And for normal day-to-day purposes, it just isn't something that needs definining!

So I have sympathy (to an extent) for someone finding that question difficult. I'd probably flounder if I was asked that question too, wondering what on earth the questioner was actually after and what hidden meanings there were.

She's a close mate of Biden's. She knows exactly what the debates are about.
RoyalCorgi · 24/03/2022 09:31

What it illustrates to me is that, just in the UK, right-wing politicians in the US have realised that they can use "What is a woman?" as a trick question to left-wing politicians.

If they answer honestly with something like "an adult human female" they will antagonise all the loonies on their own side who think that men can be women. If they answer anything else (e.g. "a woman is someone who identifies as a woman" or, as in this case, "I'm not a biologist",) they risk looking like an idiot.

So from the point of view of Republicans/Tories, it's a win-win.

AeroMocha · 24/03/2022 09:39

I'd rather people asked "do you think transwomen are women for the purposes of included them in women's spaces" or something, because that gets to the heart of what they want to know.

"Define" just seems a bad question. It reminds me of undergraduate days when we were learning about what makes humans different - is it language (then we'd learn about various animals with language); is it lying (then we'd learn about possible cases of primates lying) etc. Every possible characteristic had some potential 'counter'. And yet for every day use, there was little need for a definition.

It's only from reading things here that I learned that 'adult human female' was the answer that people are after to that question. Otherwise, I'd be trying to define it in terms of chromosomes, physical characteristics, reproductive function etc., and knowing that any of those could have edge cases tht might mean I was wrong. I'd not have said 'female' because it would imply the same thing as woman, in my mind.

So it seems more like it's a question to test whether people konw what the debate is, and what they say indirectly shows what side they're on. I'd rather they just came out and asked the right question, really!

But yes, she should have known this was a particular debate at the moment, along with many others. I can't blame her for just saying it's a question for biologists, though.

shinytape · 24/03/2022 09:42

@Floisme

Somehow I find it even more depressing that a Supreme Court nominees claims you have to be a biologist to know what a woman is and, instead of laughing her out of court, we scrutinise her words for signs of something positive.
I'm in the U.S and will take any sign of hope for future court decisions that I can.

'If Ketanji Brown Jackson says she can't define a woman because she isn't a "biologist"...does that mean being a man or a woman is, in fact, based in biology?'

twitter.com/SydneyLWatson/status/1506815205577220109

'I've been waiting all day for y'all to figure that out. She said, "I'm not a biologist" not "I'm not a PhD in gender studies." Clue dropped.'

twitter.com/miashadow7606/status/1506826667368583174

ErrolTheDragon · 24/03/2022 09:49

I've been waiting all day for y'all to figure that out. She said, "I'm not a biologist" not "I'm not a PhD in gender studies." Clue dropped.'

I said something similar on another thread.
She knows damn fine what a woman is, and the necessary and sufficient criteria for being one. But she can't straight out say it without being slaughtered. Sad

ErrolTheDragon · 24/03/2022 09:51

(As an aside, obviously professors of gender studies have shown themselves completely unable to say what a woman is. Or they are opposed to even trying to ... they just want to 'queer' the very concept , it seems. Which is no basis for any sort of laws.)

orwell101 · 24/03/2022 10:06

The left in the US & UK have both abandoned women. The fact that neither of them will admit that a woman is an adult human female attests to that. It's all about rights of men. There is no doubt that the Supreme Court is in need of a re-balance if Roe v Wade is to be upheld...but this is likely to lead to the end of women's sport.

Floisme · 24/03/2022 10:31

I'm in the U.S and will take any sign of hope for future court decisions that I can.
I get that because I do exactly the same whenever the Labour Party throw us a bone. But I'm trying to train myself out of it.

shinytape · 24/03/2022 11:16

@Floisme

I'm in the U.S and will take any sign of hope for future court decisions that I can. I get that because I do exactly the same whenever the Labour Party throw us a bone. But I'm trying to train myself out of it.
Lol. Sigh. May you be happily surprised one day soon.
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