Science on what makes people trans

[Distractable]

Is there really 'early research to show that the levels of androgens &/vs oestrogens in the mother during pregnancy can result in a trans child & that those mechanisms & pathways override the child’s sex chromosomes' as I've seen claimed online?

Scientific Mumsnetters! Please help! Is this really a thing?

No

I've never heard of any actual bona fide scientific paper showing any such results. However I know there is a lot of nonsense kicking about on the internet. Was there any reference to an actual study or was this just unsubstantiated TRA bollocks like the lies they tell about trans murder statistics?

There was a period of time when TRAs went on about karyotypes (?), but once that was proven to be unreliable it died down.

Now most of the “science” relies on DSDs.

No, it's bollocks.

Also trans is such a massive umbrella term. What's the similarity between a teenager autistic girl who is uncomfortable with her developing body and the sexualisation of girls in our society and a middle aged father of 3 who gets aroused at the idea of himself with breasts?

Zero.

Not as far as I'm aware. Sounds super-sciencey though, doesn't it?

Although I understand there may be some potential linkage with homosexuality (and sexuality is the TRUE gender identity if there is such a thing).

Most of the "trans" effects from literature (that trans activists like) are actually "sexuality" effects, and vanish if you control for sexuality. Once you do that control, less palatable-to-TRA results come up.

Oh, and you get banned from Twitter for saying it:

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1496190823226089479

Link to some real trans brain stuff in second tweet:

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1496193962901659662

(And note that brain conditions do not "override" sex chromosomes. Would you say something in a gay man has "overridden" his sex chromosomes? Being gay may be atypical for the sex, but it's not overridden his sex.)

No it's more bs like the "research studies " that "prove" lady brain and that TW have "no physical advantage over women " or that without puberty blockers, x-sex hormones and irreversible surgery "trans kids will kill themselves ".
In truth there are some studies that point towards a correlation between some types of DSD and hormone levels in uterus

It's part of the dogma. State it with enough authority and it won't matter that it's not true. Did you know that brains come in blue and pink too?

That's a bastardisation of some really complex and still nascent science. The usual suspects reaching for any justification they can.

I wrote a long post on the original research a while ago. I'll try and find the research. But basically, what NecessaryScene said and then some

No - and what if it was true? Would we say that only those people were 'truly' trans? The whole point about self-id is that anyone who says they are trans literally is trans. Any notion of checking their brain/body/hormones etc to see if they 'really' are would be incredibly counter to the ideology.

How can this be true?

No

No.
TRAs will have you believe all sorts of horseshit and this notion is one of them.

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm

This. And you have to read it carefully, to see all the 'maybe' words and to undertsand that the authors are expounding on possibilities according to their personal focus. This is an opinion piece based on teh research.

www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53500-y

This is the research published in Scientific Reports and the Limitations ection needs to be read carefully

Limitations of this study
A primary limitation of this study was that it included only 30 subjects, though this does constitute a larger sample size than the majority of prior studies utilizing WES to study gender dysphoria. It is for that reason that we consider the above findings to be preliminary in nature. We acknowledge that for any conclusions to be drawn regarding the extent to which a specific genetic variant contributes to gender dysphoria, segregation and in-vitro analysis will be essential. However, we felt that it was important to report this preliminary data to provide a new framework (i.e. consideration of variants affecting sexually dimorphic brain development) for gender identity research. We continue to enroll new patients and will continue to report significant findings as they become available.

In addition, we are unable to characterize the extent of the majority of subjects’ transition processes, as this information was not collected as part of the enrollment process. However, we did make certain that each subject met the clinical criteria for gender dysphoria before enrollment. Moving forward, we may include questions assessing the timing and extent of transition as part of the enrollment process. Finally, this study was limited in that whole exome, rather than whole genome, sequencing was utilized to identify variants. This was primarily due to cost, and may be addressed in the future as the cost of whole genome sequencing continues to fall.

...

Though these neurodevelopmental pathways have not been characterized in humans to the degree that they been described in animals, we believe that genes involving these pathways constitute a reasonable avenue for investigation into the genetic contribution to gender dysphoria in humans.

They are basically saying "This is interesting and worth a further look"

I seem to remember this exact quasi-sciency bollocks being used to "explain" why some people were Gay about 30 years ago - the implication being you could avoid these hormonal fluctuations and make sure you gave birth to a thoroughly heterosexual child..

Interesting links in that Emma Hilton tweet.

'Transgender individuals have been shown to have weaker structural and functional connectivity within the “default mode network (DMN)” of the brain, which is vital in body perception/image and concepts about “the self”'

www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8

'[transgender people] tend to show differences that are different from both male AND female controls'

or: 'Rather than being merely shifted towards either end of the male-female spectrum, transgender persons seem to present with their own unique brain phenotype.'

www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(21)00425-2/fulltext

As others have said.

However, I understand how these ideas have become dominant I think. Back in the late 80s I remember reading this theory in a university psychology textbook, including what they felt was suggestive evidence. They were only referring to what were then called transexuals, but many people now do not realize that trans is a much wider umbrella.

So to many, it seems to have been endorsed by "experts," it sounds plausible, and the medical establishment acts as if there is something to it - and they are really quite unaware about the ideological element of it all.

Here is Canada I would say the majority of liberal people believe this.

'early research to show that the levels of androgens &/vs oestrogens in the mother during pregnancy can result in a trans child & that those mechanisms & pathways override the child’s sex chromosomes'

How does this manifest itself, then?

What is a girl preference / behaviour / characteristic caused by androgen levels? Liking pink, dressing like a Disney princess?

If you have low levels of oestrogen during pregnancy will you want to be a train driver? Will you be more brave, less emotional?

The only thing that effects gender are cultural expectations.

God I hope TRAs warm up thoroughly before they do all this stretching. Enough to make a contortionist wince…

@Distractable

Is there really 'early research to show that the levels of androgens &/vs oestrogens in the mother during pregnancy can result in a trans child & that those mechanisms & pathways override the child’s sex chromosomes' as I've seen claimed online?

Scientific Mumsnetters! Please help! Is this really a thing?

I think I first read of that theory 30 - 35 years ago. In a newspaper Sunday supplement, not a journal, I hasten to add. I'm inclined to think of it as one person's back-of-a-fag-packet theory rather than "early research" since it hasn't moved on at all - in 30 - 35 years.

Anyway, back then 'trans' meant transexual not transgender; suffering from body dysmorphia not gender dysphoria. A very small number of people, mainly male, not the increasingly large and disparate group claiming the umbrella today.

I miss @bowlofbabelfish on threads like this

'early research to show that the levels of androgens &/vs oestrogens in the mother during pregnancy can result in a trans child & that those mechanisms & pathways override the child’s sex chromosomes'

If that were the case, none of these "trans children" would be prescribed puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones.

The issue for gender clinicians is that no amount of gender dysphoria will ever override the child's sex chromosomes, thus the "need" to medically intervene!

The problem with any research on brains is how it's interpreted and the data.

Best described here.

sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/

early research to show that the levels of androgens &/vs oestrogens in the mother during pregnancy can result in a trans child & that those mechanisms & pathways override the child’s sex chromosomes'

Gina Rippon excellently blows all that to shit in her book gendered brain.

It's basically sexism.

[quote DomesticatedZombie]Interesting links in that Emma Hilton tweet.

'Transgender individuals have been shown to have weaker structural and functional connectivity within the “default mode network (DMN)” of the brain, which is vital in body perception/image and concepts about “the self”'

www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8

'[transgender people] tend to show differences that are different from both male AND female controls'

or: 'Rather than being merely shifted towards either end of the male-female spectrum, transgender persons seem to present with their own unique brain phenotype.'

www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(21)00425-2/fulltext[/quote]
Do these findings also change if you control for sexuality? or have they controlled for it already?

I'm sceptical any high quality research has been done. You would need to take blood from tens of thousands of women and follow up their children for at least 30 years to get decent stats. At the moment in the UK hardly any women have pregnancy oestrogen levels measured as it isn't important for the mother or baby. Given the huge drop out in long studies like this and the amount of money someone would need to fund it I doubt it has ever been done. If it had it would have came to everyone's attention long ago