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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transvestism

38 replies

pancakestastelikecrepe · 19/03/2022 21:53

Hands up - who thinks if all those women championing males had had an encounter with a good, old fashioned transvestite, they would feel differently?

OP posts:
ResilienceWanker · 20/03/2022 21:13

Sorry, cross posted mangyinseam - yes, that all makes a lot of sense. And I think "boys liking dresses" is definitely a different social coding to them wearing eyeliner or nail varnish or being interested in fashion... more trying to "look like" the other sex rather than just liking the colours or styling. And it's possibly crossing that boundary that becomes the issue. Thanks for your thoughts.. it's very interesting!

Gerbilteeth · 20/03/2022 21:16

The transwoman I know slightly used to call himself a transvestite. He is in his 30s and wears girls' school uniform (mini-skirts). He indoctrinates his primary school age daughters about the unfairness of schoolboys not being allowed to wear skirts, and they are now obsessed with the various trans flags. They are planning their emigration to Canada.

pancakestastelikecrepe · 20/03/2022 21:23

Tribes of people living in the Amazon jungle weren't suffering a crises of authenticity because they really needed to wear dresses. It's just a bit of clothing.

@MangyInseam this is a very interesting point for me as I recall asking the TV I referred to what would he wear if he lived in a culture/society where sex roles are not necessarily represented by clothes. He answered he would wear whatever the women wore as performing 'woman' was his paraphilia...

OP posts:
PonyPatter44 · 20/03/2022 21:26

Do you remember the Terence Stamp character in Priscilla Queen of the Desert? He dressed like a stylish middle-aged woman off-stage, all wide trousers and drapy cardigans. Nothing tarty or overtly sexual about him!

CharlieParley · 21/03/2022 13:40

Sadly, I concluded years ago that a lot of men who behave adequately when the lines are clear and well accepted societally, delight in stepping over boundaries as soon as it’s apparent they can do so without negative consequences.

There is quite a bit of research into this problem, with a sizeable minority of male subjects freely admitting that they would rape a woman if they knew they would get away with it.

This is why social boundaries and not just legal ones are so vital to the safety of women and girls - if there is not even a social penalty for transgressing women's boundaries, we are in serious trouble. And that's not speculation. All we need to do is look to countries around the world where the victim of a rape is punished for having extramarital sex whereas the rapist often faces no repercussions at all. The social boundary there is all tied up in virtue - women's virtue. And if she loses it, it doesn't matter how or that it wasn't her fault or happened without her consent. All that matters is that she is no longer a virtuous woman and deserves to be punished for it.

I'm sure that breaking the rules once they are no longer properly enforced is not the preserve of males. There's probably a good explanation for why that happens and why that's an advantageous trait in evolutionary biology. What matters is that it does happen and we absolutely do know that it does.

So it flies in the face of everything we know to claim that people will not transgress boundaries if there's no repercussions for them doing it.

MangyInseam · 21/03/2022 15:39

People in general set a lot of their internal norms based on what is socially acceptable. Many (most) people have times or things where they would like to do stuff that are widely considered Not On. Maybe not super serious things, but stuff like not bothering cleaning out trash bins, or eating the food other people leave in the work fridge. And also more serious things, like not peeping on people in the toilet.

There is a range where people will try and get away with these things but secretively, or in some cases may do them but feel guilty knowing it's wrong, but they do actually work for a lot of people. Both at an individual level and maintaining social norms that help keep things on an even keel.

I suspect there will always be a capacity for people, especially men, to develop odd fetish interests. I remember reading about the rubber guy and how he was first aroused by rubber seeing a wet suit as a kid. Well - that is not anyone's fault and not much could be done to prevent it. But in a society where that was seen as not healthy, a person might make an effort to avoid letting negative sexual interests become obsessions. Many boys who might be interested in dressing as women might just not actually do it so it doesn't become a reinforced behaviour. We'd also be limiting exposure generally to certain types of material.

Obviously this will not prevent everything like this, but those boundaries do make a difference. But right now our society does not actually seem to recognize the value in things like boundaries, habits, etc, in sexual things but also in self-regulation more generally. The assumption is we are born a certain way and these capacities "develop" and it's wrong/ineffectual to try and limit that.

Linguini · 21/03/2022 21:10

FFS I got deleted for pointing out that cross dressing and transvestism are fetishes that have been absorbed into the LGBTQI++ brigade. Openly. Stonewall have laid it out clearly "trans includes cross dressers". Which includes men with a paraphilia.

For crying out loud we can't mention this? Stonewall mention it bit women can't!

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 21/03/2022 22:20

Apparently an old joke in transvestite/TW circles (think I may have heard it mentioned in connection with the Beaumont Society?) went something like "What's the difference between a cross-dresser and a transwoman? About five years...". So it seemed to be well recognised that there was often a progression from one to the other. I suspect it goes a lot faster these days though, or that many of those who would have followed that path now just go straight to identifying as "trans", as that often doesn't seem to mean anything but changing clothes and possibly growing your hair long now, anyway...

Pluvia · 21/03/2022 22:38

@Linguini

FFS I got deleted for pointing out that cross dressing and transvestism are fetishes that have been absorbed into the LGBTQI++ brigade. Openly. Stonewall have laid it out clearly "trans includes cross dressers". Which includes men with a paraphilia.

For crying out loud we can't mention this? Stonewall mention it bit women can't!

Because LGB people weren't consulted before the TQ+ was added and your condemnation of the LGBTQ+ 'brigade' is homophobic. Sexuality is completely different from gender ideology and many LGB people are furious at being forcibly teamed with an amorphous, indefinable bunch of gender ideologues. Stonewall doesn't represent LGB people any more: it's actively homophobic.

Your phrase 'the LGBTQ+ brigade', is offensive and dismissive. And it's really insensitive of you to ignore or be ignorant of the fact that many of the women who've stood up to gender ideologues and suffered for it are lesbians: Julie Bindel, Linda Bellos, Kathleen Stock, Allison Bailey, Keira Bell are names that spring instantly to mind.

Linguini · 21/03/2022 22:51

Part of my point is that LGB people aren't consulted on what constitutes LGBTQI+++.

It's become a joke and it's why I support LGB Alliance, not Stonewall.

Crossdressers and fetishists are officially included in "the brigade" it's a hard fact to stomach but it's true. Try going to a pride march one day.

Pluvia · 21/03/2022 22:57

I'm a lesbian. I attended Pride from the 80s but haven't beenfor a decade because of what was happening to the LGB community. I'm one of the early members of the LGB Alliance.

If part of your point was that the LGB community hadn't been consulted before being forcibly teamed with the TQ+ then you didn't make it very well.

Linguini · 21/03/2022 23:08

Ok sorry I just thought it was common knowledge so was coming from that place.

Pluvia · 21/03/2022 23:23

It is common knowledge here. Would you use the phrase 'the disabled brigade' or 'the minority ethnic brigade'? I suspect not.

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