Rights Conflict - simple explanation?

[BreatheAndFocus]

I need a bit of help, please. I was texting with an old friend from school and they mentioned something about trans people (sorry for vagueness, trying not to identify them if they’re a MNer) and “how ridiculous some people are, saying there’s a conflict between trans’ rights and women’s rights”.

I started pointing out a few things, but it soon became clear, they had no real idea about the issue and genuinely saw it as a few bigots just being hateful for no reason.

So….how do I explain the rights conflict simply in a few sentences? I know that if I go in all guns blazing, they’ll get the hump and switch off. They also don’t like not knowing things so any specific references will be rejected if they don’t know about them and the conversation will be closed down. I want to keep the tone light and casual, but sum up the rights conflict simply, briefly and clearly.

Any help welcome! TIA

Making toilets mixed sex excludes Muslim women. How is that inclusive?

And check the break it down for me thread.

A pal's light bulb moment came when I talked about not trans women, but trans men.

Would it be OK to put a trans man in a men's prison?

What about at skool, letting a 15 Yr old trans boy play rugby with the boys and then get changed with them afterwards, would there be a problem with that?

.... but otherwise, to be fair, its probably best to leave it right now.

There is so much going on at the moment that soon it will be more mainstream and issues will be hitting the press soon, I reckon.

And if not, we'll, everything is OK with trans women until the day it's not OK. For some people it will take a personal experience to hit home....

Saw this one in the Times yday which I quite liked: "You are, in effect, saying that it's right that my friend's daughter, a devout Muslim, can no longer train at her gym because a trans-identifying male person wished to attend during women-only hour? The young woman in question has lost 100% of her gym provision in order that a male person can select their preference from all the times. That is fair to you?"

20% of male offenders in prison are there for sex crimes. For TW it's 50%. And many of them insist it's their right to be in female prisons.

Some people don't really have much idea what a conflict of rights might actually mean - they really believe that there is no such thing. It can help to give some other examples. You could talk for example about something like affirmative action, or even something like noise, or the right to gather, and how it has to be weighed against the right of others to have a peaceful home or be able to use public spaces.

The next question is - why do we have certain places that are divided by sex, like prisons or change areas or rape crises centers. In these cases the view has been that the particular needs of each sex, to safety, or dignity, or need for services, means it is ok to divide them this way.

The question then becomes, if we say it is no longer ever ok to divide by sex, how then do we serve the needs of those people we were serving before? Are we saying that no women now need women only rape crises intervention, or women in prison no longer need or want to be separate from male bodied people? What has changed?

Usually asking questions is a better way forward, in my experiences, with people who don't know much.

I think the issue with a lot of people's understanding is that they still think 'trans' means someone who has wanted to be the opposite sex all their life, makes themselves look like the opposite sex and, re trans women, has adopted feminine mannerisms that don't immediately scream that they should be 'treated' as a man (where it's appropriate to treat people differently according to their sex).

I'd gently ask questions as to what they think a 'trans' person is (trans man and trans woman) and if they haven't yet got the memo that it's a feeling inside that is communicated only by a declaration then they might see the issue - so remember that they can't call anyone 'he' or 'she', 'man' or 'woman' until they have let you know what gender they are (or no gender).

Tara Hudson bragging about their penis was what changed my mind.

I think Wi Spa is the best example of this.

Sex offender exposes semi erect penis to women and a child - and when they reported, they were not believed, they were victimised.

It sounds like she's incredibly ignorant though.

Maybe Hadley Freemans recent article might be something you could send

Male prisoners who self identify as female are housed in the womens estate . Some of them are sex offenders. Many identify as male again when they are released.

This is a risk to women in prison, who are some of the most vulnerable women in society.

There are 3 swimming ponds.

One for males.

One for females.

One mixed sex.

The male one and the mixed sex one were not enough for the males who identify as women, so they got the rules changed and decided the female one was for them.

When women on the other hand decided they identified as men and went into the male pond, they called the police. Even though women are not actually a threat to men

Males want it all but absolutely have to keep women out of their spaces, supported by the law.

At what objective point does a 'male who identifies as a woman' actually become a woman?

What is a transwoman?

I think the Lia Thomas example is the best example of a rights conflict

Male who identifies as a man walks into a female changing room. Women are allowed to feel uncomfortable, anxious, unsafe and are allowed to challenge the male.

Male who identifies as a woman walks into a female changing room. Women are not allowed to feel uncomfortable, anxious, unsafe and are not allowed to challenge male. In fact to feel any of these things would make these Women bigots. If male gets his penis out Women should simply avert their eyes.

So basically what Women are and are not allowed to feel and what they are allowed to do in a female space, is dictated entirely by the feelings of the male in that female space. The male controls everything in the situation.

Smells pretty strongly of misogyny to me.

When I explained it to my DH the bit that "got him" was about mixed martial arts fights.

www.sportskeeda.com/amp/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight

Until then he didn't get it.

Would it be OK to put a trans man in a men's prison?

Yes that's a good one. And you can explain that generally it doesn't happen, and that people they would think of as trans men aren't bringing cases asking for it, unlike MTF trans people, and just let that sit.

The example I've used before is that as a woman I want to see a female doctor/or female nurse for a smear. I have the right to make that request. If the person who turns up is male but says they identify as a woman a conflict occurs. So who's rights take precedence? Mine to be treated by a female or a man's to be treated as if he is female? A further conflict occurs if my voicing by discomfort or objection I am accused of a hate crime.

I also think it helps to point out that the rights conflicts arise in situations where the physical body matters - sports and changing rooms and prison accomodation etc.

Should people be categorised into changing rooms by the shape of their physical body or by their feelings? And what happens when different groups want different types of organisation? Here, the point that most trans women have an intact male body becomes very relevant.

Does a man who says he feels like a woman have the right to change with teenage girls, or do they have the right to change without male bodies?

Does a man who says he feels like a woman get the right to play in womens teams, or do women get the right to fair competition?

Do male prisoners who say they are women have the right to being housed in womens prisons, or do women prisoners get the right to safety?

Does a male girlguider (or similiar) who says he is a woman get to sleep overnight with children, or do those children have the right to safeguarding measures?

Does a straight man who says he is a woman get the right to call himself a lesbian?

(P.s all men in these scenariois have penises.)

Rapists in female prisons.

Men competing as women in sport.

Smear test being done by a man and the woman was called a bigot for complaining.

The NHS instruct their staff to say there are no men here, in female wards when there clearly are.

Leading politicians saying that a parliament made up of 50% men and 50% men who say they're woman would be acceptable in terms of equality.

There are loads of conflicts, but these are the most obvious.

Point out there must be a conflict between men identifying as women and women’s rights somewhere even if she can’t see it because why is there NO press attention, discussion, debate, anger etc over women who identify as men trying to access male spaces, male prisons, male sports? Ask her why that is.

(Clue women are the vulnerable sex so joining men’s spaces/ sports etc has no disadvantage for men).

I'd go with Lia Thomas swimming in a women's team. All six foot four of him.

What gave me clarity was to ask how the wide sex classes, male and female, are affected by the changes the most extreme gender activists desire.

The male sex loses essentially nothing at all. People can still write about prostate cancer being a problem for men or about erectile dysfunction being a problem for men. No reason to replace 'men' with 'prostate havers' or 'ejaculators.'

But the female sex is slowly becoming nameless. Cervical cancer affects cervix-havers, period supplies are needed by 'menstruators.'

Inclusiveness works mostly in one direction, demanding erasure of the female sex while leaving the male sex unruffled.

This is a giant problem for any activism trying to better the lot of biologically female people on the global level, this erasure of all names for the large victim category.

Trans men are not going to displace lots of male people from the podium in athletic events or make them lose (in the US) college scholarships based on sports. But trans women are much more likely to displace female people from the podium and the scholarship race.

Male people in prisons are not going to be in greater danger if trans men are in male prisons, but female people in prisons might, indeed, be in greater danger for sexual assault if trans women are in female prisons.

And the 'inclusiveness' is eroding or destroying the measures that were brought in in the 19th and 20th centuries to redress the centuries-old historical power imbalance between the sexes. Thus the single sex spaces that allowed women to feel safe outside the home, the female-specific posts and awards designed to redress inequality in politics, business, the arts, universities, etc. are now being eroded and taken by men, some of whom get a 'fox in the henhouse' power thrill from doing so.

Thank you to everyone who’s responded so far - I’m noting all these great points I think whoever above said my friend was ignorant is right. They’ve given the subject a cursory glance, taken away a false view or two, and now dismiss everything as hate and bigotry. Like many, I don’t think they understand what this is about and have wrongly assumed the position is “trans people want human rights, nasty women are saying they can’t have any rights” or something like that. So they see the rights conflict as being Good People Want Trans People to have Rights v. Nasty Women Don’t, but that’s so not what it’s about, and it frustrates me beyond measure that a supposedly intelligent person can have such a superficial understanding.

I know they’ll be defensive if I say anything and so that’s why I want a kind of pre-formed brief paragraph to give them.