Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 2

[Sophoclesthefox]

Forgive the presumption, @Mforstater, but you’re probably busy in the pub right now, or passing on all of the fan mail to you legal team so I’ve made a new thread to carry on the fascinating discussion.

Round up your cats, rabbits and weasels, and let’s go!

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From thread one, here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

BC: Email from Quantum Impact with report - identifies version for claimant - says "it's vague, deliberately vague, because we shouldn't get into discussion with claimant because she knows her stuff really well"

shock

jfc. their approach really is 'la la la not listening'

I’m still catching up on this afternoon’s proceedings on thread 1 but I burst out laughing when I read this. Holy shit!

Ben is a legend. Maya - I hope you’re enjoying this. What. a. shitshow! Unbelievable.

Just finished reading the tweets from tribunal - totally gobsmacked. Do they have any idea of absurd they sound?

@Imnobody4

Just finished reading the tweets from tribunal - totally gobsmacked. Do they have any idea of absurd they sound?

I keep trying to tell myself that we all look like inarticulate, incoherent idiots when notionally transcribed.

But, yes, I can't think this will be something on which they will reflect with any sense of certainty that they make sense to anybody who doesn't share the same bias and ideologies.

Twitter's gone a bit crazy for Ben Cooper QC, but they're appreciating the wrong one

God, how I wish I could have listened in! Has it ever been possible to listen at a later date, to these sort of things?

I thought Ben Cooper got as close to “I know this is bullshit; you know this is bullshit” as he could.

I salute Maya’s courage in dealing with all of this.

Ben Cooper (NOT QC) on Twitter sounds like a good laugh - I'm glad he's taking the onslaught of attention in his stride!

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

I thought Ben Cooper got as close to “I know this is bullshit; you know this is bullshit” as he could.

I salute Maya’s courage in dealing with all of this.

Yeah, I can't imagine Maya is able to enjoy this, unfortunately.

Fingers crossed she will, in time.

@Waitwhat23

Ben Cooper (NOT QC) on Twitter sounds like a good laugh - I'm glad he's taking the onslaught of attention in his stride!

Like John Lewis who deals with all the response to JL's Christmas campaign every year.

I’ve very much enjoyed reading the comments here but am bloody incredulous at the witness. I’m pretty flabbergasted to be honest and have so much more respect for Maya if that’s even possible. Interesting that none of our usual detractors are over here today though.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus ah yes! "Meet @JohnLewis - the John Lewis that isn't the British retailer - BBC News" www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-46266698.amp

Interesting that none of our usual detractors are over here today though.

I was going to write something along those lines on the Emma Watson thread which has attracted a hell of a lot of posters who don't choose to engage or comment on threads like this one but pile on to denounce 'feminism, eh!!' on threads which deal with less weighty issues (for want of a better phrase).

Hi all,

Just finished a looong day with my 3 under 5s, struggling to think straight let alone read through all of these threads/ tweets... But really interested to know how it's going!

If anyone can be bothered to write a quick summary (or point me in direction of pre-existing one) then much appreciated 👍

Interesting that none of our usual detractors are over here today
though

They are over on a thread about voting labour, castigating us all for
Voting based on only one issue
Not asking bojo (the serial shagger of women) if he knows what a woman is.
Calling us useful idiots, cant remember any more but may as well call us basic bitches and try to force us to conform and vote for the only true party, or something.

That's easy sacred. Ben Cooper was on 🔥 Luke was offended by absolutely everything and Amanda said that they didn't have a policy but Maya broke it anyway.
And on the first thread someone said "You can stop now Ben, he's dead"
Obviously there was 6 hours more but that is the highlights

@Terfydactyl

Interesting that none of our usual detractors are over here today though

They are over on a thread about voting labour, castigating us all for
Voting based on only one issue
Not asking bojo (the serial shagger of women) if he knows what a woman is.
Calling us useful idiots, cant remember any more but may as well call us basic bitches and try to force us to conform and vote for the only true party, or something.

Well, if they can't comprehend a topic as straightforwardly uncontestable as binary biological sex I'm not inclined to listen to their opinions regarding, say, dialectical materialism.

Thanks! Sounds good :)

Thanks for the gif, Hydrosaurus. I’ll never tire of that line.

More Amanda Glassman tomorrow, I presume. Bring it on.

You wims, you're amazing, you know. And Maya, thank you for taking the top off the crazy to show us all what lurks within. I know you have paid a heavy price for this.

On this, I don't think it's about office norms (although those seem to have differed between the US and UK offices). After all "it was normal in this office for men to comment on women's bodies" would not really be a defence against sexual harassment.

I disagree here, though I’m certainly not an expert. I think that office norms are relevant. Because to establish that Maya was treated unfavourably due to her beliefs there needs to be a comparator - someone who held different beliefs and expressed them at work, but didn’t face the same sanctions. Otherwise CGD could simply show that anyone expressing their beliefs in work would face the same sanction and then there’s no unfavourable treatment.

The sexual harassment comparison would work if a black person was fired for sexual harassment while the white people weren’t, because that indicates that a black person was treated unfavourably because of their race. The legality or acceptability of the “office norm” is irrelevant, it is the differences in treatment between the “offenders” which is important.

Is not being asked questions by your own counsel not ever so slightly embarrassing? It's not exactly a ringing endorsement of your performance is it?

Thank you for the sterling work to post all the updates - I've been dipping in as much as I can today and I've really appreciated (and enjoyed) your efforts.

@PearPickingPorky

Still laughing at someone on the previous thread saying "He's dead, Ben, you can stop now"

That tickled me too. If Luke Easley is what is considered an acceptable standard of a professional HR person, well, words fail me.

The amount of times he and Ms Glassman have had to admit to 'inaccuracies' aka lying and covering up or revert to 'don't know, ask someone else' is alarming.

Also, thanks for the threads. I’m catching up on two days of live tweeting and it’s taking ages. Worth it though. My faves so far, from LE’s testimony:

this ties my mind in knots. Her belief is confusing.

Maya’s opinions (ie biology) are so confusing (eye roll) it is messing with his head. I’d argue that’s because he’s experiencing serious cognitive dissonance when trying to explain himself.

identity is reality

It is hard imagine a more Orwellian phrase.

The whole “broad perspective” conversation. And the “deliberately vague” conversation. I actually cringed reading them.

I am confused about the distinction between “material reality” and “reality” though.

I hope that directors of businesses who may currently be humouring their inclusion and diversity lobbies, see where this leads (in terms of reputational and financial risk) and push back.

@Baystard

I hope that directors of businesses who may currently be humouring their inclusion and diversity lobbies, see where this leads (in terms of reputational and financial risk) and push back.

I would hope that even at this time of night there are businesses that have contacted their HR to say: You did carry out due diligence about the source of the advice and training, didn't you? You did pass it through legal?