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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mediocre Politicians - a twitter thread.

26 replies

Mollyollydolly · 14/03/2022 23:57

I thought this was a very interesting thread and it reflects a lot of my own thoughts on why so many of our female politicians are so disappointing. Well worth a read.
twitter.com/WTFoucault/status/1503477492291710988

OP posts:
Clymene · 15/03/2022 07:08

Wow, that's a phenomenal bit of writing.

OverByYer · 15/03/2022 07:18

Just wow. Thanks for sharing. And a new person to follow for me.

hemulensdress · 15/03/2022 07:37

Really interesting. This could be applied to many women in media, too.

JellySaurus · 15/03/2022 07:45

My background is similar to her description of female MPs' background, and I am very definitely a small-L liberal, yet I am able to understand the concerns of other women, and to understand that I would also be powerless and vulnerable in their positions. What prevents these MPs having empathy with other women, or extrapolating from information? It can't just be the experience of relative privilege and safety.

JellySaurus · 15/03/2022 07:46

Perhaps the essential difference is that I never was a Head Girl type.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/03/2022 07:54

What a good piece of writing to start the day with.

Violetparis · 15/03/2022 07:56

Agree, this is really good and a number of MPs sprang to mind straight away.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 15/03/2022 07:59

Loved this thread, nail on head it seems.

IcakethereforeIam · 15/03/2022 08:20

I still don't understand why they fail to realise that many women don't want to be in a space with a naked male stranger (however the male may identify. How can the failure of empathy be so great. I'm certain that none of them would, whatever they spout. Will their minds just not go there? Do they think this is a sacrifice that other women should be willing, nay happy, to lay on the alter of the 'most vulnerable'?

This is where my empathy breaks down, I cannot understand the women who support this. Understanding must be there, somewhere, but I cannot find it. I suspect there's a message board somewhere and they're posting the same thing about my view.

IcakethereforeIam · 15/03/2022 08:21

Sorry, altar.

WinterTrees · 15/03/2022 09:15

Thanks for linking this, I hadn't seen it and it's excellent. Brilliantly written and really interesting - an angle I hadn't considered before but is so easy to see now it's pointed out.

I hope it gets circulated widely.

DomesticatedZombie · 15/03/2022 09:22

Oh, that's interesting.

MaMaLa321 · 15/03/2022 10:54

I enjoyed the thread, especially when it tacitly points at so-called feminist politicians who believe that TWAW.
But I believe that we shouldn't lose sight of the many MPs who work hard for their communities, and will never progress beyond the back benches. I think that it must be a thankless task (I certainly wouldn't want to take it on) and there should be more appreciation of those who take it on.
And, in the end, if you don't like what we have, you should get off your backside and get involved to improve things. Cynicism is easy, and, ultimately, destructive.

Mollyollydolly · 15/03/2022 19:38

I've cut and pasted it here for anyone who doesn't do twitter. Such a long thread - ignore any bad formatting on my part.

"It was revelatory, while working at Mumsnet, to witness first hand, in parliament, the extent to which so many politicians wrap a mediocre intellect inside an absolute, bouncing, head-girl or boy self-confidence.

You think you know this already - but you don't… Or at least, not the full extent of it. You would be astonished at the paucity of ability, experience and insight in many of those who have a meaningful hand in making our laws, and at the casual, will-they-won’t-they process by which they may - or may not ! - engage with critical evidence.

Most of all, you would be astounded by the extent to which they are unaware of - or worse, aware but unphased by - the disjunct between their own abilities and the grave decisions with which they are charged.

Most of all, you would be floored by how little most women MPs, on both benches, understand ordinary women’s lives.

It’s baked in, I suppose - the women who can succeed in a world created by and for men do so precisely to the degree that they have not themselves been subject to the grinding limits and attacks of patriarchy.I've worked briefly with or known personally three who now assert that trans women are women.

All describe themselves as feminists; none have understood that their analyses are built primarily upon a generalisation of their own experience - a daily life which is exceptional almost beyond words; a million miles from the reality of girls in care, or just those in local authority schools, or in sports teams; a kazillion from that of women in prison, in refuges, in hospital, or in mental health settings. Just as far, in a different way, from the reality of all the women for whom the local authority gym or pool offers a break from caring; who do PTA admin, but wouldn’t run for school governor; who turn up reliably for constituency campaigning and the tea-urn.

Left and Liberal women alike take a fundamentally conservative, 'common sense' view of the world, extrapolating from their own experience, mapping their own exceptional growings-up, exceptional educations …
...their whole ‘life of an exceptional woman’ onto those of the general population without pause or embarrassment. Even the most self-awaren imagine that a standard woman-life can be described as a percentage of their own.

This is not to say that they have been protected from sexism - they haven’t, of course not. All speak of egregious, outrageous instances. But these narratives are both familiar and not, because they exist within a framework that none of us can recognise.

It’s a Billy Bunter sexism, a Bullingdon or Boris sexism. It's dreadful, but it’s exceptional - pantomime-like, almost. It requires backbone - one might say balls - to stand up to it, and they all have it. They are Alpha women. They do have balls or at least, a class confidence (or borrowed class confidence) which tells them to have a bloody go, stand up for your principles and just... power through. 'Nevertheless, she persisted.' They might equally have been attracted to the fuck-you of being a senior banker or a corporate CEO. Their feminism is a liberal - in some cases, explicitly libertarian - feminism. A 'firsts' type feminism - first female MP under 30, and so on .. Breaking the barriers. Fighting for a world in which nothing can stop a determined, talented, hard-working young woman from reaching the very top, against the odds.

Even the female MP with the least privilege - the one I really did believe would acknowledge at least a conflict of rights -is exceptionalised by both her alpha drive and an adult life spent in a rarefied - Hogwarts-like, ironically - world. Their kind of feminism knows - or perhaps, sees - so little of patriarchy-as-atmosphere: the molecular operation of power which seeps into every aspect of the public and private lives of ordinary girls and women.

The air we all breathe, the air which chokes us. Theirs is a feminism that seeks (achieves, woo! ) equality, and throws the word around like a trophy, without the intelligence (or at least humility) to understand that equality is not a hockey match won on a groundsman-tended pitch, fair and square but an exhausting, tedious, and in many cases impossible tunnelling-down, away from the sunshine and the cheers into the dirt of women's lived experience, mapping every path and passageway of their lives, digging in and out to clear every point ... where the way becomes impassable, or cramped - or painful, frightening, dark.

(As an aside, this view of the nature or meaning of equality is shared by many women attracted to a certain kind of public life; one I knew very well insisted without irony that all transwomen were markedly more oppressed than she, .. … blithely unaware that the same would be true of 99.95% of the population. Not unconnectedly, she takes a semi-gender critical position largely on the basis that she won't be told what to do, by TRAs or anyone else.)

So, where does this leave us? The women who can parry and feint their way to centre-stage in politics are, by definition not like other women - they experience the world through simplified cues, and a series of call-and-response analyses which they project onto our lives.

Of course, the problem is systemic. If our parliament were not such a pantomime, it would not attract these principal boys - women who, because they themselves can triumphantly best the Grand Vizier, cannot understand that their less privileged sisters fear the Dame.

I don’t know what’s to be done. I’m sure most of the women concerned will see this, one way or another, and I’d welcome a meaningful response. In the meantime … Behind You.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/03/2022 20:07

As an aside, this view of the nature or meaning of equality is shared by many women attracted to a certain kind of public life; one I knew very well insisted without irony that all transwomen were markedly more oppressed than she, .. … blithely unaware that the same would be true of 99.95% of the population. Not unconnectedly, she takes a semi-gender critical position largely on the basis that she won't be told what to do, by TRAs or anyone else.)

This is an interesting post, I have an idea what it's referring to.

MangyInseam · 15/03/2022 22:26

@JellySaurus

My background is similar to her description of female MPs' background, and I am very definitely a small-L liberal, yet I am able to understand the concerns of other women, and to understand that I would also be powerless and vulnerable in their positions. What prevents these MPs having empathy with other women, or extrapolating from information? It can't just be the experience of relative privilege and safety.
I think you'd also have to ask - why do they appear on the progressive side with so much more frequency?

I think it's true that there are people who don't seem to be able to extrapolate much beyond their own experience, but also their own belief system. But are they more likely to join the LP than the CP?

Maybe it is true to some extent, I have suspected that maybe some of the efforts to get more women involved are not really encouraging the best people.

But I think there is something else going on there as well. Or maybe several something elses.

WinterDeWinter · 19/05/2022 20:59

Ooh this was my Twitter thread and I'm now very vainly pleased that some of you liked it.

WinterDeWinter · 19/05/2022 21:16

@Ereshkigalangcleg I think you got it .

GoodThinkingMax · 19/05/2022 21:33

I've followed WTFoucault since forever (or whenever she started tweeting). She's brilliant! She's also ex-MNHQ and I often wonder what backstage stories she could tell eg about interns and data leaks of feminist email addresses ...

Her thread about the class implications of gender extremist ideology and the whole TWAW is a total classic and we should all read & digest it.

mellongoose · 19/05/2022 21:41

Can we agree that there are some brilliant women on the conservatives side (and others ) who know exactly how to define a woman and are working really hard to fight this on the inside.

I would name Miriam Cates, Angela Richardson, Rosie Duffield, Joanna Cherry, Cherilyn Mackrory, Laura Farris and others.

They work cross party, having to persuade men who don't understand the issues as well as other women MPs who do understand but cannot bare support women in this.

GoodThinkingMax · 19/05/2022 21:52

But I think we need to be verrrry careful about wholesale condemnation of women in power. We need women in power - even mediocre ones. We'll know we are approaching something like equality when we have mediocre women in charge of stuff all over the place, just like we have mediocre men now.

But not all people in positions of power (not just Parliament) are mediocre or self-serving. It is tough being a leader and a woman, in whatever area of our lives. And I think we need to be careful about seeing feminism and taking on positions of leadership as opposed to each other - it was a big argument in the 1970s Women's Lib feminism I grew up within, and it still is.

But my feeling is that we need the kind of feminists that Greenham women were/are(see the great Greenham Women project running at the moment) AND we need the women who will work from the inside (in Australia in the 1970s they called them 'femocrats" - and they did real work of change).

It's tough for women who take up leadership roles as a kind of practical feminism - "feminesse oblige" as one of my (leader/powerful) women mentors once called it. We have to assume a level of good will or good intent in feminist women's actions. We are socialised to be suspicious of power for ourselves - we really need to overcome this. Because if women don't take up power - it's left to the boys.

WinterDeWinter · 19/05/2022 22:10

That is a really powerful argument @GoodThinkingMax, which IMO mitigates- as liberal thinking always does - my point, but doesn't overcome it.

The question is: does liberalism work? Can we actually stop women being oppressed on every level with the politics that seem to be the only ones available to us. The evidence - of the last hundred or so years - seems to suggest that we can change the appearance, but not the fact, of women's oppression.

MangyInseam · 19/05/2022 22:14

MangyInseam · 15/03/2022 22:26

@JellySaurus

My background is similar to her description of female MPs' background, and I am very definitely a small-L liberal, yet I am able to understand the concerns of other women, and to understand that I would also be powerless and vulnerable in their positions. What prevents these MPs having empathy with other women, or extrapolating from information? It can't just be the experience of relative privilege and safety.
I think you'd also have to ask - why do they appear on the progressive side with so much more frequency?

I think it's true that there are people who don't seem to be able to extrapolate much beyond their own experience, but also their own belief system. But are they more likely to join the LP than the CP?

Maybe it is true to some extent, I have suspected that maybe some of the efforts to get more women involved are not really encouraging the best people.

But I think there is something else going on there as well. Or maybe several something elses.

One of the common differences you see with people who consider themselves progressive vs conservative is that the former have a belief (often not concious and inconsistently applied) that all of our social structures and behaviours are completely socially constructed. So we can remake society and people if only we apply the right pressures, give people the right education, and so on.

Whereas conservatives tend to think that while there can be social and political variation, and you can affect people by providing certain anvironments, underlying all of these are certain realities that constrain us. One of those being physical sex, and probably also certain behaviours and psychological things associated with our sex.

Another area this manifests is how the two groups want to deal with things like sexual assault. One side emphasises remaking men over though things like education "we need to teach men not to rape" and that this can be done while also being totally sexually liberated, and the other thinks society has to be structured on on ongoing basis to be more sexually regulated and reduce opportunities for sexual violence.

For conservatives, their worldview is protective against thinking that there is no significance to reproductive role beyond pushing out babies. And there are a good many progressive feminist approaches that seem to say the opposite taht Labout women have likely picked up on.

GoodThinkingMax · 19/05/2022 22:22

To a certain extent I agree @WinterDeWinter and I do see your point about liberalism (although anyone calling themselves a liberal should be required to read all of John Stuart Mill - his is a radical liberalism which blows the top off what most people think is liberalism).

It's tricky though isn't it? How do we get the fundamental change you want? And what do we do in the meantime? Do we say that the current system doesn't help women - indeed, it doesn't actually recognise women as fully human, although most of us can't afford to look that fact in the face too often. Do we therefore boycott the current system?

How could we do that without just ceding all the tools of power to men?

I am old enough to have seen the effects of the changes in my own profession (academic) and more broadly. I was in my early teens when women fought for & got equal pay for the same job; the next challenge was equal pay for work of equal value. That's work and I know that work is not everything. But I also know from y own research just how much women yearned for meaningful paid work when they were mostly not allowed to undertake it. Middle-class women that is, and working class women needed to be paid properly.

The REAL challenge now is to articulate the ways in which the world - work, society, life patterns - is built around the male body and the conventional masculine life pattern. I deal with young women researchers whose early years of career productivity coincide with the peak years for establishing a family. They juggle those, and it shouldn't be so hard. On the other hand, my generation generally had to choose - family/marriage/children or career. That's the invisible sacrifice a lot of us made - no family. So even the small step towards just acknowledging & articulating that there's an issue for women academics is a bit of progress.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is - let a thousand flowers bloom - we need multiple kinds of feminist activism.

And within that, I don't think we should be so wary of power.

GoodThinkingMax · 19/05/2022 22:25

Adding to my bloody essay (I should be marking other people's essays) Mary Harrington is, I think, very interesting on these topics. I don't always agree but she is thought-provoking and very rational.

And that's another thing - women have to get more comfortable with disagreeing with each other, and putting aside differences, in order to achieve the bigger goals.

Meghan Murphy's conversation with Natasha Chart is really good on this.