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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender is a social construct?

28 replies

RedPanda901 · 14/03/2022 22:01

I'm so impressed by the women on this board and their knowledge of how the fight for women's rights has changed in recent years. I too struggle with this cancel culture of people with differing opinions. What ever happened to listening and respecting each other's outlook? What I'm trying to get clarification on is gender fluidity. So if someone says there's no such thing as gender; it's a social construct why do they then sometimes dress in a traditional gendered way? Is part of being gender fluid saying that the lived experience of someone born female (or male) is irrelevant? Genuinely interested in your views.

OP posts:
bishophaha · 14/03/2022 22:04

Something being a 'social construct' doesn't mean it exists. Money/currency is usually a good example of this - the coins themselves don't have any inherent value but they represent a system we all buy into.

What 'gender' is is not really definable. To me it's 'sex role stereotypes' - how your sex determines how you are treated by society in general.

Many times it is a lazy shorthand for 'masculinity' or 'femininity' which are normally bound to culture and time (and change between these).

What I don't believe is that 'gender' is some innate part of your brain or personality etc - it's influenced by how you're brought up, by the culture you live in, tons of things.

bishophaha · 14/03/2022 22:05

I mean 'doesn't mean it DOESN'T exist'!!

IstayedForTheFeminism · 14/03/2022 22:10

Surely being gender fluid, and believing that gender doesn't exist/is a made up construct are different things?

MangyInseam · 14/03/2022 22:12

I really think that what people call gender is the cultural expressions of our experience of living as a sexed species.

In some cases, some of those things can be quite random - quite constructed. We assign pink vs blue for reasons that could easily be the opposite.

But the underlying element to which those associations are attached is sex, it's our reproductive role. It's because we recognize that as a significant difference that we differentiate.

In other cases it's less arbitrary. There are all kinds of cultural ideas build up around the idea of motherhood for example - if you searched through art, literature, music. These have strong similarities across cultures because they refer to one of our most primal experiences.

I think it's folly to try and get away from this kind of thing. Reproductive role has too big of an impact on individuals and a society. And what's more, we are really, really interested in it, and we notice it, and in fact can't not notice it.

A better approach is to try and make sure that we don't disadvantage people (whatever that means and a whole other question) through these cultural expressions.

Linguini · 14/03/2022 22:26

I'm a person who says "gender is a social construct (but sex isn't)".

I wear stereotypically feminine clothes sometimes, and stereotypically "manly" clothes other times.
I'm not "gender fluid". I'm not "trans".

So if someone says there's no such thing as gender; it's a social construct why do they then sometimes dress in a traditional gendered way?

Because it's just clothes. Clothes and appearance are pretty much meaningless untill a socially constructed meaning is applied to them. Many people wear clothes or have a style usually associated with people of the opposite sex, it doesn't mean anything.

Is part of being gender fluid saying that the lived experience of someone born female (or male) is irrelevant?

You're either a male "gender fluid" person or a female "gender fluid" person, but I do think that in the current climate gender ideologists of both sexes do indeed write off the lived experience of females as irrelevant.

Gender ideologists place more importance on sex stereotypes and "gender based expression" as though what you want to look like and forcing pronouns on people is something really really significant, and your sex is irrelevant.

DameHelena · 15/03/2022 08:22

@Linguini

I'm a person who says "gender is a social construct (but sex isn't)".

I wear stereotypically feminine clothes sometimes, and stereotypically "manly" clothes other times.
I'm not "gender fluid". I'm not "trans".

So if someone says there's no such thing as gender; it's a social construct why do they then sometimes dress in a traditional gendered way?

Because it's just clothes. Clothes and appearance are pretty much meaningless untill a socially constructed meaning is applied to them. Many people wear clothes or have a style usually associated with people of the opposite sex, it doesn't mean anything.

Is part of being gender fluid saying that the lived experience of someone born female (or male) is irrelevant?

You're either a male "gender fluid" person or a female "gender fluid" person, but I do think that in the current climate gender ideologists of both sexes do indeed write off the lived experience of females as irrelevant.

Gender ideologists place more importance on sex stereotypes and "gender based expression" as though what you want to look like and forcing pronouns on people is something really really significant, and your sex is irrelevant.

Agree with this, especially 'gender is a social construct (but sex isn't)', which seems to me to be inarguable.

I don't really understand the notion of 'gender fluid' though, if someone could explain it further?

RedPanda901 · 15/03/2022 08:28

I agree that biological sex is immutable. The way our bodies are physically formed informs how others respond to them and that's very different for people born male and female.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 15/03/2022 08:34

“MangyInseam

I really think that what people call gender is the cultural expressions of our experience of living as a sexed species.

In some cases, some of those things can be quite random - quite constructed. We assign pink vs blue for reasons that could easily be the opposite.

But the underlying element to which those associations are attached is sex, it's our reproductive role. It's because we recognize that as a significant difference that we differentiate.

In other cases it's less arbitrary. There are all kinds of cultural ideas build up around the idea of motherhood for example - if you searched through art, literature, music. These have strong similarities across cultures because they refer to one of our most primal experiences.

I think it's folly to try and get away from this kind of thing. Reproductive role has too big of an impact on individuals and a society. And what's more, we are really, really interested in it, and we notice it, and in fact can't not notice it.

A better approach is to try and make sure that we don't disadvantage people (whatever that means and a whole other question) through these cultural expressions.“

I agree with what you say here.

NonnyMouse1337 · 15/03/2022 08:39

I really think that what people call gender is the cultural expressions of our experience of living as a sexed species.

I agree and that's a nice way to describe it. There are a lot of cultural, social and interpersonal expressions that arise within all human societies and civilisations as a result of our species being sexually dimorphic.

Some can be quite arbitrary, some change quite dramatically over time, others persist in various forms, some norms are good or neutral, others quite bad especially when enforced with little room for individual expression.
But they are all linked in some way to humans trying to express the differences that arise between the sexes - not just physical, but also personality traits on a population level such as mating strategies.
These attempts to distinguish and differentiate between the sexes can become quite stratified and arbitrary over time as layers upon layers of tradition is added. People forget why things may have been done a certain way in the past and insist that we should keep it that way because it's how it's always been done etc.

CantStandMeCow · 15/03/2022 08:46

The way that gender roles and tropes has historically been in flux should tell people that it’s not biological. There’s no innate draw for boys to play with trucks just as there’s no reason girls should be the only ones in pink dresses (a colour and garment historically male). But sex is fixed. And women have long been oppressed based on that same biological setup that transwomen are now trying to erase. It’s a bit like locking your nan in a cupboard for twenty years then trying to convince her she can’t have been abused because there’s no such thing as a cupboard.

Onionpatch · 15/03/2022 08:48

I am not sure that gender fluid people are the same people that say gender is a social construct.
I do/wear gendered things because we are social animals and conforming to my tribe is part of 'surviving' in my tribe. Social exclusion is a powerful weapon.

MotherOfCrocodiles · 15/03/2022 09:00

Kathleen Stock, "material Girls" explains this well in the first chapter, at least it was illuminating for me.

My understanding is that the concept of gender was originally conceived of as something done to people according to their sex, "you are a woman therefore you have these traits/behaviours"

More recently it's been turned on its head and many think we are born with an urge to show masculine/feminine traits and behaviours which is independent of, and possibly more "true" than our sex.

It's actually kind of complicated to define what is a woman or man as she explains, no definition is satisfactory. As an intellectual problem that's interesting but people get very invested in the question because it has implications in the real world of course.

SamphiretheStickerist · 15/03/2022 09:08

@RedPanda901

I'm so impressed by the women on this board and their knowledge of how the fight for women's rights has changed in recent years. I too struggle with this cancel culture of people with differing opinions. What ever happened to listening and respecting each other's outlook? What I'm trying to get clarification on is gender fluidity. So if someone says there's no such thing as gender; it's a social construct why do they then sometimes dress in a traditional gendered way? Is part of being gender fluid saying that the lived experience of someone born female (or male) is irrelevant? Genuinely interested in your views.
Many many reasons. But first, gender does exist. It is, like many social stereotypes, how we as a society contruct a short hand, a social map, we can use to navigate daily living. It is what cis at the heart of all sorts of 'othering' (to use a more modern phrase). All sorts of bigotry stems from social stereotypes being reframed from undertsanding to fear, dislike.

WHy do I, a GC woman, wear 'female clothes? Well that's because they fit my female body.

You have got to get this the right way round. Dresses, robes have always been more comfortable, aasier to construct, cheaper to make than clothign woth fixture, fastenings etc., So historically men too wore robes, wraps, skirts, and still do in many countries.

That women in Westernised countries still do is a matter for social mores, those stereotypes. It hasn't been all that long in the UK since men of high status wore high heels and stockings and women were fully covered up.

Gender fluidity for me as a GC woman is a matter of being comfortable and not needing or wanting to adhere to the social stereotype of 'woman'. So short hair sometimes, no make up, clothing varies, depends how I feel, weather etc. I wouldn't call it being gender fluid as I have long since chosen to iognore much of the patriarchal restrictions that society asks of women, including dress sense. I am just being me.

Gender fluidity for others, non binary trans etc, is more strictured by the social stereotypes. More effort is made to be the opposite of the born sex and its associated gendered image.

For many of the non binary indoviduals we used to have different names for them, from Gender Bending to Goth, Emo and all sorts of other youth fashions. Some even took the stereotypes and ran with them, like Metrosexual Man and Ladettes.

Lived experience is one of those daft things a lot of the current gender ideology relies upon., As though popping on a dress means that you immediately experience everything 'a woman' would experience. Yes, a man doing this will experience attitudes, behaviours, sensations that he has not experienced before. From a breeze on his inner thighs to men catcalling and laughing at him, maybe threatening him. But whilst those are the same experiences as many women have he doesn't experience them "as a woman" but as a man who has stepped outside social conformity. His fears, his feelings and emotional reactions will be quite different to those of a woman in the same position

Bu he is not a woman. Is not 'living as a woman'. He is a man who has stepped outside of the social contruct of maculinity. And more power to his elbow. But he is never a woman!

I hope that helps!

SamphiretheStickerist · 15/03/2022 09:08

I really think that what people call gender is the cultural expressions of our experience of living as a sexed species.

Yes! That! Nicely put.

MotherOfCrocodiles · 15/03/2022 09:09

I should add that, regardless of practical implications, for people of my generation (40s) many grew up with the idea of pushing back against gender norms - I don't have to be a certain way because I am a woman. As a female scientist I still strongly support this view. although I wouldn't want to stop individuals identifying as they wish, I objects to the concept that I am less of a woman than a male sexed person who conforms to a more traditional female role.

Therefore, regardless f the practical implications, it is anathema to me to accept that the "true" idea of a woman is a person of either sex who has certain traits or behaviours.

BIWI · 15/03/2022 09:11

Love that post @SamphiretheStickerist

DameHelena · 15/03/2022 09:16

Lived experience is one of those daft things a lot of the current gender ideology relies upon. As though popping on a dress means that you immediately experience everything 'a woman' would experience. Yes, a man doing this will experience attitudes, behaviours, sensations that he has not experienced before. From a breeze on his inner thighs to men catcalling and laughing at him, maybe threatening him. But whilst those are the same experiences as many women have he doesn't experience them "as a woman" but as a man who has stepped outside social conformity. His fears, his feelings and emotional reactions will be quite different to those of a woman in the same position
Bu he is not a woman. Is not 'living as a woman'. He is a man who has stepped outside of the social contruct of maculinity. And more power to his elbow. But he is never a woman!

This is fascinating. Thanks for posting it. So (I'm thinking out loud here; forgive me) is this a reason why transwomen/trans acitvists want access for transwomen to women's changing rooms/loos? That they fear/know they will be catcalled or threatened if they use men's facilities while wearing a dress?
And, the point about 'whilst those are the same experiences as many women have he doesn't experience them "as a woman" but as a man who has stepped outside social conformity. His fears, his feelings and emotional reactions will be quite different to those of a woman in the same position' –is that a reason to allow transwomen access to transwomen to women's facilities? Or is the fact that he is a man 'who has stepped outside social conformity' and is having 'fears…feelings and emotional reactions' different from those of a woman in the same position a reason NOT to?
I'm asking because I'm trying to unpick for myself, and formulate a reason for other people when I come to have these discussions, why exactly I think women's single-sex spaces must be preserved. Instinctively I think they SHOULD be preserved; but I need some more solid stuff to be able to argue with...!

SamphiretheStickerist · 15/03/2022 09:18

I'm just embarrrased that my fat arthritic fingers typed "cis" and I didn't see it Shock Grin

RedPanda901 · 15/03/2022 09:21

Yes, that is a great POV. @SamphiretheStickerist
I am also mid 40s and was brought up by a strongly feminist mother so I feel a real affinity with other gen X women who've also experienced and observed the way things have changed for women.

OP posts:
SamphiretheStickerist · 15/03/2022 09:24

@DameHelena we aren't really allowed to discus the emotional whys of that here. We get deleted, strikes against us and possibly banned.

But, in general, it can be useful to google the differences between, say, gender dysphoria and AGP.

Broadly speaking, many men who choose to use female facilities do it for many reasons of self affirmation rather than fear of using male facilities. Many transwomen who have posted here have said as much. If you are of an age you will remember Gender bending of the 80s. The dress wearing men back then continued to use male facilties and mostly came to no harm. They didn't feel the need to flee from the prospect of harm by using female facilities, because they were fully aware that, in a dress or not, they were male!

DameHelena · 15/03/2022 09:34

[quote SamphiretheStickerist]@DameHelena we aren't really allowed to discus the emotional whys of that here. We get deleted, strikes against us and possibly banned.

But, in general, it can be useful to google the differences between, say, gender dysphoria and AGP.

Broadly speaking, many men who choose to use female facilities do it for many reasons of self affirmation rather than fear of using male facilities. Many transwomen who have posted here have said as much. If you are of an age you will remember Gender bending of the 80s. The dress wearing men back then continued to use male facilties and mostly came to no harm. They didn't feel the need to flee from the prospect of harm by using female facilities, because they were fully aware that, in a dress or not, they were male![/quote]
Sorry, I'm fairly new to these threads and didn't realise it was so hazardous posting stuff like that. (fucking hell...) Thank you for the pointers.

I just about remember gender bending, yes, although wasn't of an age for it to really resonate for me. I hadn't thought of it, but yes, there didn't seem to be any issue then with who gets to use which facilities (although am I right in thinking that people like Boy George have talked about facing hostility/attack in those days for the way they looked and dressed?).
But yes, obviously there's a massive cultural discussion now, that there wasn't then, about who uses which facilities. So what has changed? I do absolutely condemn people attacking men for wearing dresses and make-up etc, obviously. But do we not need a conversation about male aggression more than we need anyone to be able to use women's loos?

SamphiretheStickerist · 15/03/2022 09:54

Yes. Men in dresses, in the UK, are anomalous and will be challenged, laughed at, by some. They are stepping outside of those cultural norms that many, like GC women, consider old fashioned, restrictive and dangerous.

Toxic Masculinity is another phrase you could look up. It affects men and women and is more deeply rooted than I first thought when I first read about it. It's quite scary, even my own DH is somewhat irrevocably shaped by it!

What has changed? I have a long and rambling theory about that! Short(ish) version?

We live in a society where most real life harms and challenges have been removed. We also have fewer face to face interactions than we used to have. Less call upon our time for working (all of this is whole cohort rather than individual), more separated leisure time. Basically we are not as physically or emotionally taxed by our made envoronment as we were even 50 years ago. Actually, make that even 20 years ago.

So we look for other challenges. We have seen the rise in exciting gap years, far flung holidays, going to strange and dangerous palces for fun. Leisure activities like base jumping, building climbing; coastal walks now involve jumping in and out of the water rather than a footpath. But that lacks a personal edge. So we look inwards and are unfulfilled.

So what? Well, think about the extremes that are more prevalent, and visible, today. Facial tattoos, eyebrows, lip fillers, all sorts of surgery, make up, clothing, everything is available and a generally acceptable in a more extreme manner than it was for the previous generations.

And still we are unfulfilled. So what is wrong? WE are wrong. And rather than be gay, bi sexual, asexual or just good old fashioned fucked up we become agender, demigender, genderqueer, non binary, pangender, trans, androgyne, boi, femme, etc. And it is sooooooooooooooo painful, we have proof we are alive!

Basically, the indistrial and digital revolutions are squeezing people out of the workplace and into thought space. Human beings don't fucntion well without real fears, harms etc. So we invent them. From the Boogey Man to Transphobia, nothing new under the sun, just a recycling of old stuff with new labels!

DameHelena · 15/03/2022 10:02

Thanks so much for all this. I did already think (and had read/heard quite a lot) that online culture, particularly, has changed our behaviour in some worrying ways, as you say.
Totally on board with the idea of toxic masculinity and how it can affect women, as well as men who one generally thinks are 'enlightened'.

Thanks again.

bishophaha · 15/03/2022 10:06

I'm asking because I'm trying to unpick for myself, and formulate a reason for other people when I come to have these discussions, why exactly I think women's single-sex spaces must be preserved. Instinctively I think they SHOULD be preserved; but I need some more solid stuff to be able to argue with...!

Well, why do we have them in the first place? For things like toilets, showers etc, it's for privacy, dignity - which i guess TRAs could argue isn't affected even though they can't speak for all women - but also: safety.

One's sex is a huge predictor (in terms of risk) of whether you are likely to be violent. Obviously most men aren't violent! But as a class, male people account for most violence, and almost all sexual violence (assault, rape etc).

So sex-segregation is a 'quick and dirty' way of lowering the risk. Of course a sign on the door won't keep a man out who's determined to attack a woman in the ladies', but social convention keeps people safer at a fairly low cost.

And children as well as other adults need proper safeguarding.

DameHelena · 15/03/2022 10:44

One's sex is a huge predictor (in terms of risk) of whether you are likely to be violent. Obviously most men aren't violent! But as a class, male people account for most violence, and almost all sexual violence (assault, rape etc).
So sex-segregation is a 'quick and dirty' way of lowering the risk. Of course a sign on the door won't keep a man out who's determined to attack a woman in the ladies', but social convention keeps people safer at a fairly low cost.
And children as well as other adults need proper safeguarding.

Thanks for all this.