Being friends with patents with 'trans' children when you are gender critical

[DrDetriment]

Just that really. I have two friends, different friendship groups so they don't know each other. Not close friends but people I know through work that I have lunch with or coffee and chat about life. Both have teenage daughters, nearly adult, who are now trans men. One has an autism diagnosis as well, I don't know about the other.

I've tried to avoid talking about gender but it comes up due to the nature of our work with young people and I'm struggling with the viciousness one in particular has against gender critical beliefs. In her eyes the Tavistock are underfunded saints and that her 'son' (she constantly emphasises son) knew who he was aged 12 and anyone who questioned it is disgusting. My other friend is more accepring of other views but simply repeats 'it was a safeguarding issue'. Although both are highly intelligent and I am sure knowledgeable, they both confuse sex and gender a lot.

I fully support trans people's rights to live their lives free from harassment and to call themselves what they like but I do believe in the importance of sex based sport, female spaces, the definition of woman as adult human female, someone with xx chromosomes etc. Given our differences on such a fundamental issue, should I take a big step back from these friendships? I'm finding myself very wound up when I see friend two in particular and given her strong feeling about her 'son's' rights, I don't think we can simply avoid the subject.

Sorry title should read parents. I'm on my phone with fat fingers!

I have found myself distancing myself from friends in this circumstance, not because I am transphobic but because it forms such a huge part of their identity and conversation, and I find myself walking on eggshells trying to not say anything they would see as wrong, whilst also not compromising on what I see as the truth. And neutral answers aren’t enough - one for example talks at length about her daughter, always emphasising the word daughter (rarely talks about her other children) and seems to require constant positive affirmation of how girly her daughter is. I totally understand where she is coming from but it gets wearing and also boring. So because I cannot give her what she needs I do find myself seeing her less.

It’s the same as if she had become a fundamental Christian - it’s her right to do so but I couldn’t agree with everything she believes and ultimately get a bit bored of hearing it.

In your shoes I would take a step back, be busy for coffee and take some time away. If only for the headspace and not feeling tense, anxious and stressed, meeting a friend for a coffee generally is a much nicer experience.

If it were me I would end the friendship, I would not be able to continue to see either friend who parents this way, I would not be able to keep quiet about the harm being caused or the huge failures at the Tavi and I would not want the burden of knowing that these children are being lied to and not being able to do anything about it.

I would feel some sympathy for these mothers who I'm sure want to do the best thing for their children but I fundamentally disagree with this approach being the best thing so I couldn't continue to support it in any way. Not even hmmm'ing and nodding along.

It’s the same as if she had become a fundamental Christian - it’s her right to do so but I couldn’t agree with everything she believes and ultimately get a bit bored of hearing it.

I thought they same thing in a way, I thought 'what if a friend was really hitting her child hard so to discipline them?' Would I say something or understand it as her right to parent her chin as she sees fit? It's quite a clear line to me when I think about it like that.

A few years ago I went out for the evening with a friend and she asked me my views on trans/gender

Turned out that her young adult son was wanting to transition. Obviously her family was finding it very difficult

She does still mention him (now her) in the same way we both talk about our children, the odd thing grates but I figure shes having a difficult time as it is

Her child does have/had mental health issues, was anorexic and may have autism, the father is very ‘man of the house’ and has issues with his wife wearing makeup for example

Child seems happy enough now and if there are any issues my friend isn’t talking about them and any discussion about trans rights vs womens rights doesn’t happen so I don’t know what her views are

I'm gender critical and one of my children is trans. It took me two years to accept that I couldn't do anything about it. My views haven't changed, but what I have done is step back from all the GC vs TRA content online and as a result I don't feel riled up all the time and barely give it headspace these days. It absolutely is a topic that can be avoided, like politics and religion. It's the people who are constantly steeping themselves in pro this or anti that that can't seem to stop talking about it.

Oh so following the posts above its not an issue for me (yet?) because she doesn’t talk about it

She just refers to a daughter rather than a son

If she was like your friend OP I probably wouldn’t find it easy to remain friends (not that she is a close friend, but i do see her regularly)

I just don't talk about this issue with parents of children who've transitioned that I know. My closest friends' child transitioning did contribute to my coming off Twitter because the algorithms make it impossible not to see and think about the issue all the time, I was tense and angry.

With those friends, there seems to be mutual agreement that we don't talk about it. I signalled to them that I was going to use new name and pronouns by sending a message about a bit of casual work that the child was going to do for me. They know my views in general due to conversations we had years ago about an issue at work, and this has probably contributed to our friendship being a bit less close, but we are still friends and talk about other things. I wish that the child, now a young adult, would consider assessment for autism, and I am fearful of how things might change when they go to university, but ultimately it is not my business how they live their lives. I hope personally that the child will end up identifying as nonbinary. I did push back on one thing they said to me about men and women, I said something like 'not everyone agrees with that' as they were being a dogmatic teenager about how the sexes behave. But that's it.

I have relatives who are currently deeply worried that their extremely troubled child has decided literally in a matter of weeks that all their problems can be fixed by surgical transition. Again I am not going to build barriers of any sort. I will listen, and if asked directly im not going to lie about what my views are but it is rare for people to ask questions if they know they're not going to like the answer.

In my group the parents are all very well aware that sex cannot change and the parents have allowed various degrees of social transition while their daughters are receiving balanced mental health support as needed.

The parents know one another but aren’t friends as such and their daughters are not friends either.

I rarely see one of the child’s parents, and am closer with the others. If they had to be labeled, they’d be gender critical. I don’t discuss it with my better friend past enquiring how their daughter is and generally discussing why girls are seeking to transition on occasion. Her own mental health is not great and I allow her to lead the conversation topics.

The mother who I rarely see is relieved to see me when she does because she had told me I am one of the only parents who openly will discuss the situation with her and I don’t judge her or her child (who is close friends with my own teen). And I also provide her with various resource links (such as the Cass interim report the other day) because I know she might not see them come out.

All parents tried Mermaids and found their advice not helpful for their particular situation. In fact, one told me they thought Mermaids was aimed at helping transitioning males and felt it was written by adult transitioned males. All parents felt Mermaids was too focused on transitioning their children and certainly not balanced.

These poor parents. Knowing your child is caught up in this and having to replace their fears with an unquestioning cheer leader role as trans activists deem anything other than that transphobic.
I suppose stepping back depends on the depth of the friendship OP? I bet they'll need friends down the line when this all falls apart, especially if their child is one of the many girls caught up in this via social contagion. My instinct would be to walk alongside them, listening.

Transgender Trend have this very powerful article from a psychologist about what happens to children (especially younger children) where parents cheerlead rather than support, watch and wait:

www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

Thank you for your thoughts. I feel better just sharing this here. I think friend number one I will continue my support. His daughter's transition contributed to the breakdown of his marriage and I think the safeguarding comments are him trying to come to terms with a very difficult situation, where both his trans child and ex wife are struggling with mental health issues. The second friend I think I might need to take a bit of a step back from, though that's hard due to work. She's just so much of a TRA and gets very emotional about it. She herself does also seem to be struggling with her mental health so I don't want to ditch her altogether as she seems quite lonely, and she has been very lovely to me in a work context.

I really thought hard about posting here but am glad I did as I felt a bit like I was going mad!

Wow, that is a fantastic article @MrsOvertonsWindow

This bit: 'I wonder what our generation has forgotten that our parents knew. For they held onto reality for us, when we were too young to know the difference.' really stood out to me. It's social media that's made the difference isn't it?

If one of the parents was focused on discussing trans rights and ‘anti’ this and that, I would step back completely from the friendship.

I agree with pp’s who say it is possible to know the parents thoughts and to not constantly discuss it. And to be friends and enquire after their child’s health without constantly discussing rights etc.

Any friendship, when you are having one on one discussion, would be too intense if either party is fully focused on one topic of discussion all the time. Or if you knew there was a topic to avoid because their was no common ground at all.

It's brilliant isn't it Clymene. And compassionate.

I reckon that these parents need all our support. Trans activists have turned this into a battle - if you don't believe this / say that / agree with this , then you're transphobic.
Don't let's buy into this toxic narrative. If someone's a friend - even if I disagree with them, then I'd protect that friendship, listen and support. We all know the reality of what's happening to these children (and their parents) and they need support - especially from those clear sighted enough to have seen what's really going on.

I’ve 100% backed off from having this discussion with a relative, who told about their friend who had a “daughter” who’d “demonstrated transness from the earliest days”, by wanting to wear princess dresses and being confused about his sex at nursery when asked to place himself into the one of the groups: girls or boys. The accompanying anger made me suspect cognitive dissonance was in play. This from a person who I’d have said is usually quite sensible, though admittedly something of a moral crusader. I haven’t been able to bring myself to ask the obvious question about what’ll happen when the “daughter” goes through puberty and becomes unmistakably male, because what good would it do to convince my relative, who will have no control over what their friends do?

Gosh that article has made me cry. My autistic daughter is that girl, currently going through puberty.

She wears boys clothes, right down to swim trunks and a rash vest. But she knows that she's a girl.

She is not in the school system due to complex needs and I am so glad because I think she would have experienced peer pressure to express herself at least as non binary.

On to the point of the OP. I've been removed from SN facebook groups for expressing a modicum of caution to 'transitioning' autistic girls. I don't have any friends with trans identifying children, I think I would find it very difficult.

You say these are not longstanding or close friends?

In that case I’d be uncomfortable discussing such personal matters with acquaintances, new friends etc, in any depth, or for very much of the conversation. If just meeting up for lunch, coffee or whatever.

I know this wasn’t your point but the Tavistock isn’t just made up of the gender identity clinic. There are lots of different departments and lots of gc staff who work at the Tavistock in different departments.

@PaperDoves

I'm gender critical and one of my children is trans. It took me two years to accept that I couldn't do anything about it. My views haven't changed, but what I have done is step back from all the GC vs TRA content online and as a result I don't feel riled up all the time and barely give it headspace these days. It absolutely is a topic that can be avoided, like politics and religion. It's the people who are constantly steeping themselves in pro this or anti that that can't seem to stop talking about it.

@PaperDoves I feel exactly the same. One of my DC is transgender and I am Gender Critical. I support women's rights and am against trans women competing in Womens' sports. Sometimes I am called transphobic for those views, and I look at my happy transgender adult child and think how can I be transphobic; having supported them through transition over the past 11 years. My other adult DC says I am awful for my views, knows I am on Mumsnet and said I shouldn't be as Mumsnet is evil towards trans people. I just avoid any conversation with them on the subject.