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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Ditum - What's a woman? Don't ask Labour

42 replies

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/03/2022 07:05

She's written a barnstorming article in today's Times highlighting the absurdity of Labour's inability define a woman. Share token:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/07ed9594-a16f-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=f1b870b93f5a458cb62f73ec3879a485

OP posts:
VenezuelaChant · 12/03/2022 10:58

I recall her husband got a lashing from the TRAs, too.

Masdintle · 12/03/2022 11:57

Talking of TW in OC, the one on recently was absolutely horrible to a team mate. Really awful behaviour. It was embarrassing

MsGoodenough · 12/03/2022 12:40

VCM is also good friends with Robert Webb, so she definitely knows what's going on. She is the best.

DonkeySkin · 12/03/2022 13:53

A woman is an adult human female. Trans women have the right to be safe and respected in their chosen gender

The second statement contradicts the first. It isn't coherent to say that women are adult human females but that men also have the right to be 'respected' as women.

... and Labour is committed to balancing the rights of both groups.

How do you balance women's rights against the pseudo-right of men to occupy the female sex category at will? You can't. 'Balancing rights' necessarily entails ceding some of women's rights and protections to appease men's demands.

One of the peculiarities of this debate is the number of GC feminists who refuse to acknowledge what trans activists understand so well: at base, this really is a zero-sum game.

Melroses · 12/03/2022 14:09

@ChopinBoard

I look forward to telling Labour canvassers that I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of voting for them at the next election.
Excellent.

False accusations are admissions and all that.

It is not the definition of what a woman is that is the rabbit hole here, but the Labour Party's attitudes and convolutions. It is this Keir Starmer cannot face.

A woman being an adult human female is straightforward and correct.

butnobodytoldme · 12/03/2022 15:32

@ChopinBoard

I look forward to telling Labour canvassers that I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of voting for them at the next election.
@ChopinBoard. This made me exclaim aloud with glee. Thank you.

Even women candidates refuse to answer questions or emails.

Here, Liberals are desperately trying because they are second in the Borough, Labour can't be bothered, although they are second in the Ward.

Please somebody start a 'None-of-the-above' party, so the country has someone to vote for. (A single policy, perhaps, of consulting people?)

And yes, the Ditum article was great.

butnobodytoldme · 12/03/2022 15:47

5% sex offenders in male prisons, 50% in womens, since men had the option to 'keep themselves safe' from other men's potential 'unkind remarks', at the expense of keeping women safe from rapists.

Obviously every bit of the brain wiring and every cell of the body is different, depending if someone is born with 'xx' chromosomes, or 'xy'. I also heard in passing some work on genes, and cannot now trace it, but the figure was either three thousand or six thousand, so far, identified as being sex-specific.

So no, nobody can change species and nor can they change sex, but those of their own sex should of course not be unkind to them, just as foxes should not be unkind to fellow foxes who genuinely wish to 'live as chickens'. It is not, however, reasonable to demand chickens accept them in the hen-house, with or without a feather costume

ErrolTheDragon · 12/03/2022 17:06

A woman is an adult human female. Trans women have the right to be safe and respected in their chosen gender

The second statement contradicts the first. It isn't coherent to say that women are adult human females but that men also have the right to be 'respected' as women.

No- not once you've got straight that female refers solely to sex, and women are female humans. Gender is something different: Transwomen are feminine males, and should not be discriminated against for so being, relative to other males.

It's really not very difficult to make clear, accurate distinctions which protect appropriate rights.

StandUpStraight · 12/03/2022 18:20

Since the Times has stopped allowing comments on articles like this one, people have started using the next article along to comment on the blocked article. This time Carol Midgley’s article is hosting the comments on Sarah Ditum’s. I’ve cancelled my sub today. It’s utterly outrageous that this is the only topic they censor.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e1983122-a161-11ec-b38e-10b333e9179b?shareToken=80fe492e4258b3d971b09d6d3e0209ee

Circumferences · 12/03/2022 21:18

A woman is an adult human female. Trans women have the right to be safe and respected in their chosen gender

The second statement contradicts the first. It isn't coherent to say that women are adult human females but that men also have the right to be 'respected' as women

I'm not sure about that criticism because the line carefully avoids saying "TWAW" and just that transwomen (I'd amend it to use "transwomen" rather than "trans women" myself)*
....have a chosen gender which is their right, but they aren't women. I do get what you mean overall though.

*If you're reading Sarah Ditum! Grin

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/03/2022 21:29

A woman is an adult human female. Trans women have the right to be safe and respected in their chosen gender

The second statement contradicts the first. It isn't coherent to say that women are adult human females but that men also have the right to be 'respected' as women.

... and Labour is committed to balancing the rights of both groups.

How do you balance women's rights against the pseudo-right of men to occupy the female sex category at will? You can't. 'Balancing rights' necessarily entails ceding some of women's rights and protections to appease men's demands.

This.

samsalmon · 12/03/2022 22:19

Really great article (god I hope the politicians mentioned within have read it) and very good to see the focus on the importance of language, without which there can be no discussion and no coherent laws. It’s not just about pronouns. Language can’t be replaced by feelings.

butnobodytoldme · 13/03/2022 09:18

Nobody can balance the 'rights' of foxes to enter hen houses, versus the rights of hens to be safeguarded from predators.

Other foxes must "be kind" to the one in a million of their fellow foxes who genuinely is a misfit among some of their fox groups.

DonkeySkin · 13/03/2022 12:23

No- not once you've got straight that female refers solely to sex, and women are female humans. Gender is something different: Transwomen are feminine males, and should not be discriminated against for so being, relative to other males.

The vast majority of people use gender as a synonym for sex. They are not going to care about arcane gender-studies distinctions between the two (which are theoretically incoherent anyway).

If GC feminists or Labour adopt the line that men deserve to be 'safe and respected in their chosen gender', people are going to understand that to mean exactly what it sounds like.

If the real meaning is that men should have the right to wear make-up without getting beaten up, why not just say that, then? Why talk about 'trans women' and 'chosen gender'? Anyone who understands how damaging the gender identity movement is to women's rights should not be validating either concept.

butnobodytoldme · 13/03/2022 13:55

It's a puzzle, but maybe instead of leaving the Times, the trick of posting comments next- one- along is better? It is being heavily used, and in that way, even politicians may not be able to remain entirely ignorant.

One little extra gem today is a description of child-abuse detectives' work, which should be, but is not, set alongside the statistic from elsethread MN that only 5% of 'sex offenders' now choose to remain in men's prisons, while 50% discover the magic words "I am a woman" after arrest.

Oh - I just realised - because there is such a huge number of men in prison, compared to women, they get the extra perk of certainty there will be a critical mass of men just exactly like them, if they insist on congregating in the relatively few women's prisons. Great. Prey for those who hate women, plus women are more likely to have pictures and visits from tasty children, plus, all together, the men can swap handy tips on what to do next.

Plus, the information that England, Scotland, Wales are so misogynistic they adamantly refuse to alter crash test rules, even if it hurts the car export industry. While the rest of the world, notably the EU, has insisted on admitting women may be passengers or drivers in cars, UK holds out against changing test-dummies, enjoying instead the high rate of injury and death for women.

(As Invisible Women details, it must be women's own own fault if they don't have identical bodies to men, the 'real' humans. A radio 4 mention, also today, was of a woman explaining it is nearly impossible for women organists to reach pedals, because despite decades of complaints, nobody can be bothered to make seats adjustable)

highame · 13/03/2022 14:14

I am really puzzled that the 'progressives' haven't yet had a debate about whether there is any point at which Liberal Democracy has a barrier. The majority of us are centrists and have been fine with progressive politics but there is a point at which the majority view says 'no further' and this seems to be when rights clash and safeguarding is threatened. The answer from progressives is 'they just need to be educated' but that in itself is causing backlash. When will there be a debate about any limits on progress and where they are. Liberal Democracy seems never to have looked at the point of resistance and worked out what this means.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/03/2022 14:37

It's a puzzle, but maybe instead of leaving the Times, the trick of posting comments next- one- along is better? It is being heavily used, and in that way, even politicians may not be able to remain entirely ignorant.

I really like it, as a protest.

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