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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tavistock staff and Foucault

112 replies

MNadactyl · 05/03/2022 21:30

In the Telegraph. A whistleblower is also quoted:

“The identity politics that is colonising our public services is only causing further division and distrust which I cannot condone.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/05/nhs-child-gender-clinic-forced-u-turn-bombardment-wokery/

"Another series of emails last year saw the Tavistock’s LGBTQI+ staff network write a glowing profile of the French philosopher Michel Foucault, whose theories have underpinned woke ideologies but who posthumously faced allegations he abused boys in Tunisia in the 1960s.
Appearing to dismiss these claims, the Tavistock staff email said: “After his death, Foucault’s life and work were subject to a series of salacious attacks that focused on his sexual preferences."
Queer theory
The group also encouraged Tavistock staff to embrace “queer theory”, including studying identities “in which gender does not follow from sex and those in which the practices of desire do not ‘follow’ from either sex or gender”, as well as “anti-porn politics” and “butch-femme erotics”.
Another profile by the staff group cited the queer theorist Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick’s view that "‘many people have their richest mental/emotional involvement with sexual acts that they don't do, or even don't want to do”."

OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 06/03/2022 14:55

@nightscrollingdoom
The Tavistock is more like a postgraduate clinical university with multiple departments and clinics in the trust - it isn’t just GIDS. To think it is just the GIDS clinic is a major misunderstanding of what the Tavistock is.

@MNadactyl
So why is taking it upon yourself to email others to defend Foucault, a good thing? Or a necessary thing?

Also there has to be more to this. The actions of whoever the Foucault Fan is, seem unlikely (though not impossible) to have sprung from nothing.

There's more to this story. Has to be.

@nightscrollingdoom
Christ, I’m just trying to explain something that has been misunderstood - no fandom required. It’s important to actually know what things are and what they mean!

I’m not emailing you either, I’m posting on a bloody message board!

My humble analysis:-
I think there have been a major misunderstanding by @nightscrollingdoom about @MNadactyl 's short post in this response. I take the op's post as questioning (reiterating as per the opening op) why a certain grouping of staff at the Tavistock took it upon themselves to circulate emails to other Tavistock employees with glowing profile/appreciation of Foucault. And, encouraging them to embrace queer theories. Op is like 'what's the story, morning glory?'

In short, the question remains as to the purpose of the flurry of activism by the Tavistock internal club/group. I don't think MNdactyl was referring to emails or message boards involving other posters on this thread. Unless, any poster is one of these activist Foucault groupies who was involved in trying to influence the Tavistock email recipients.

Am I right op?

MNadactyl · 06/03/2022 15:00

@Cailleach1

the question remains as to the purpose of the flurry of activism by the Tavistock internal club/group. I don't think MNdactyl was referring to emails or message boards involving other posters on this thread.

Exactly right, yes

OP posts:
DomesticatedZombie · 06/03/2022 16:53

@DomesticatedZombie - but none of his theory actually says anything like that, and staff at the Tavistock is not the same as the staff of GID

anything like what? I am trying, nightscrolling, but I find it hard to follow your arguments. I appreciate you are very well versed in the academic theory, but leaving that aside, I am finding your points hard to grasp.

Lovelyricepudding · 06/03/2022 17:55

@MNadactyl

In the Telegraph. A whistleblower is also quoted:

“The identity politics that is colonising our public services is only causing further division and distrust which I cannot condone.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/05/nhs-child-gender-clinic-forced-u-turn-bombardment-wokery/

"Another series of emails last year saw the Tavistock’s LGBTQI+ staff network write a glowing profile of the French philosopher Michel Foucault, whose theories have underpinned woke ideologies but who posthumously faced allegations he abused boys in Tunisia in the 1960s.
Appearing to dismiss these claims, the Tavistock staff email said: “After his death, Foucault’s life and work were subject to a series of salacious attacks that focused on his sexual preferences."
Queer theory
The group also encouraged Tavistock staff to embrace “queer theory”, including studying identities “in which gender does not follow from sex and those in which the practices of desire do not ‘follow’ from either sex or gender”, as well as “anti-porn politics” and “butch-femme erotics”.
Another profile by the staff group cited the queer theorist Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick’s view that "‘many people have their richest mental/emotional involvement with sexual acts that they don't do, or even don't want to do”."

So the email was a glowing profile of Foucault the man not his works, which dismisses rather than addresses his paedophilia. And that is considered OK at Tavistock?

They then go on to promote Queer theory which we now understand from Nightscroller is not Foucault's bag. So does this suggest Tavistock clinicians also misunderstand Foucault? I would also be grateful if Nightscroller could give me her understanding of Queer theory?

LaChanticleer · 06/03/2022 18:21

And the email is but a window into what has to be much more of a story, as I've said. It's very unclear why someone would seemingly take it upon themselves to email out defending his reported actions and not his theory (if the theory is so unproblematic). Still no answers on that point.

I agree that there should be real concerns about safe-guarding at the Tavistock. David Bell and others have alerted us to the issues of practice there.

And I admit, I haven't clicked through to the links you've given ... I suspect - from other evidence - that there has been damage done by 'wokery.' We're living through this.

But I'd argue that it does feminists ** no good to simply condemn post-modernism & Foucault (who's a post-structuralist rather than pomo, but anyhoo ...). It makes us appear reactionary & ignorant; far better to know the material & point out how people using Foucault to justify cutting off young women's breasts have not read his work , and are the ignorant ones.

There's a lot in critical theory which offers feminism some really useful & important ways of thinking, and which can help us to dismantle "the masters's house" - as Audré Lorde put it.

** I think "proper" feminism is always 'gender critical' so I try to avoid using that term.

MNadactyl · 06/03/2022 18:47

But why email round dismissing the paedophilia claims about Foucault? What does that person stand to gain by doing that?

Possibly things like shutting down discussion of whether he should be referenced at work at all because of those claims ie "we at the Tavi should distance ourselves and think of other useful routes into this topic because of the underage boys claim"? (If it's that, then shutting down discussion about reported child abuse sends a message, doesn't it?)

Possibly because without Foucault, Butler and "gender" starts to fall apart? If that happens then it might start to unravel much of what we know has been such a concern that there's a review on about the numbers of kids wanting to transition? That possibility would also seem to have the effect of blocking off avenues of discussion.

It's a puzzle.

OP posts:
nightscrollingdoom · 06/03/2022 20:51

But the entire point I’m trying to tell you OP is that contemporary ideas of “gender” used in gender ideology aren’t based on Foucault. In fact even Butler’s work on gender is actually antithetical to gender in that sense - her gender work is actually the exact opposite of “gender” in the way that it’s currently used by transgender activists.

Now, Butler seems to be happy to team up with any TRA going these days, and go along with stuff that her original work actually argued against, just to keep in with the trans in crowd. Don’t ask me why.

I don’t know how often I can say that current ideas of “gender” are not in fact based on Foucault (who in any case wrote on sexuality, not gender); that he isn’t in fact a queer theorist or a postmodernist; and that in any case “postmodernism” isn’t what those links seem to think it is either.

This discussion gets us nowhere, because you still want to believe, against any evidence from the actual work, that Foucault invented “gender”, when he just — didn’t.

nightscrollingdoom · 06/03/2022 20:59

There’s a bit in a recent interview with Butler where she says, basically, I argued that there was no essentialism to gender but trans activists have told me I was wrong and now I’ve accepted that I have much to learn from them. And bingo — dismisses almost the entire point of her (really quite slight and tendentious) work in Gender Trouble. Why she is happy with this I have no idea. 🤷‍♀️

Lovelyricepudding · 06/03/2022 21:03

I understand what you are saying. But it seems others misinterpret it this way. Perhaps Butler may be the answer? If her earlier work agrees with Foucault but now she is ignoring that to keep TRAS happy then the logic is Butler is pro gender, Butler agrees with Foucault so Foucault must be pro gender?

How do you see this linking with Queer theory? And what do you understand Queer theory to be?

MNadactyl · 06/03/2022 21:09

Trying to tell me. Interesting choice of scold there. And it is your opinion. Not a fact. In my opinion, Butler does fall apart without Foucault.

But. Again. Why would someone take it on themselves to defend Foucault against those reports of child sexual abuse? Why? There has to be a reason. Imagine doing that at work.

That is what I'm interested in, not the interpretations of theory.

OP posts:
nightscrollingdoom · 06/03/2022 21:20

Trying to tell me. Interesting choice of scold there. And it is your opinion. Not a fact. In my opinion, Butler does fall apart without Foucault.

I really don’t know what more to say - it’s not a scold; I’m explaining to you a fact (not an opinion) that you’ve got wrong about a theorist’s work. If you haven’t read the material, how on earth can you argue the point in the first place?

What do you base your opinions on, if you don’t know the facts about what Foucault’s and Butler’s work actually says, and haven’t read it?

MNadactyl · 06/03/2022 21:25

How anyone views his works or Butler's is not the central point. Far from it.

Still no answer about why Tavi some staff seem keen on - seemingly apropos of nothing - defending Foucault against reports of paedophilia. To me that is a huge red flag.

If it's not come from nothing then what's that defence from? What's it for? And why do it at work?

OP posts:
nightscrollingdoom · 06/03/2022 22:01

@Lovelyricepudding

I understand what you are saying. But it seems others misinterpret it this way. Perhaps Butler may be the answer? If her earlier work agrees with Foucault but now she is ignoring that to keep TRAS happy then the logic is Butler is pro gender, Butler agrees with Foucault so Foucault must be pro gender?

How do you see this linking with Queer theory? And what do you understand Queer theory to be?

She doesn’t “agree with” Foucault in that sense; her early work is loosely influenced by Foucauldian methodology, because she was originally a Hegelian scholar, and Foucault also derived some of his historical method from Hegel. But it isn’t like she just replicates Foucault as such. Critical theorists draw from a lot of precursors and contemporaries, and often they make use of some aspects but critique others, or they make use of a methodology but jettison part of the consequences of the thought, and so on.

Foucault himself was not explicitly interested in the idea of gender/sex (very much the main province of French feminism and psychoanalysis at that point in his career); but he is interested in sexuality in history. Largely male homosexuality, of course. There are, of course, many feminist criticisms to be made of Foucault about this, and lots of use to be drawn from his work too.

The initial phase of “queer theory” was very much about male homosexuality - “queer” of course being the slur against gay men at the time, not the current idea of “queer”. Sex and gender was very much thought of by male theorists of homosexuality (often dismissively so), as the province of feminists during the 70s-90s. Eve Sedgwick, in The Epistemology of the Closet (which typifies early “queer theory”), spends a lot of time in her work trying to justify why she as a woman is interested in male homosexuality, and why she should write on it if she’s not a gay man. (She does at one point make the somewhat comical statement that she can empathise with the marginality of gay men because she’s a fat woman, which is both kind of ludicrous and also…kind of not.) But her work was a very good polemical history of the gay rights movement in America, and how the politics and theory of sexuality might come together. It’s also famous for its rather overburdened prose style, but probably unjustly so. It’s worth reading, if you can stick with the prose.

That kind of “queer theory” sought to make a space in academic work and society for gay people to articulate their experiences and rewrite same sex oriented experience back into social and literary history. It’s a world away from the current daffy rubbish some TRAs come out with (here’s looking at you, Grace Lavery and Andrea Chu).

Much current trans/queer theory is a rather mendacious attempt to piggyback on the serious work of late 20thc century theorists of homosexuality and bisexuality. It adopts this body of work on sexuality and LGB history and tries to use it to do the same thing for gender ideology that was done for gay people. It’s usually pretty bad, though, because of all the obvious contradictions in gender ideology that we all know about. And it dismisses and co-opts the serious work of 20thc. feminist theory in a similar way. But to do so it rests on a kind of vulgarised postmodernism and a US version of identity politics, as well as a very uncritical notion of medical / clinical essentialism.

I enjoy writing about this, but I probably need to go to bed now!

nightscrollingdoom · 06/03/2022 22:14

Also i should say that much of the work of the original queer theorists of the 70s-90s was focused precisely on dismantling the idea that sexuality, sex and gender were linked in obvious ways. Especially in jettisoning the ideas around “gender inversion” that assumed that gay people were naturally the other sex but “trapped” in the wrong body.

Then transgender theory went and dumped all that dusty old shit right back in there again.

(Much of trans theory is essentially just a reworking of crappy early 20th century pseudo-medical “sexology” by people like Havelock Ellis, who was also an advocate for fetishes and eugenics, funnily enough.)

DontLikeCrumpets · 06/03/2022 22:57

@MidsomerMurmurs "pseud’s corner vibe on this thread"

Not impressed with any academic qualifications you may have if the best rebuttal you can muster is a dismissive remark

MangyInseam · 07/03/2022 03:32

@MNadactyl

Trying to tell me. Interesting choice of scold there. And it is your opinion. Not a fact. In my opinion, Butler does fall apart without Foucault.

But. Again. Why would someone take it on themselves to defend Foucault against those reports of child sexual abuse? Why? There has to be a reason. Imagine doing that at work.

That is what I'm interested in, not the interpretations of theory.

They are not defending it, they are dismissing it out of hand as a dispersion motivated by homophobia.
MNadactyl · 07/03/2022 07:56

Some say dispersion, some would say this might indicate creating a sacred caste.

OP posts:
OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg · 07/03/2022 08:27

OP, you’re asking us to speculate on something we can have no way of knowing.

If the Tavistock emailer is an active part of the GIDS hierarchy then yes, dismissing claims of Foucault’s alleged paedophilia is a red flag.

If the Tavistock emailer is engaged in academic study of early psychosexual texts, has nothing to do with GIDS and was attempting a “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” rebuttal of why Foucault is still, in their opinion, important to critique then that’s a different thing. And the problem is we don’t know, and will potentially never know, which of these positions the emailer was coming from.

I don’t think anyone here would dispute that position A is worrying. But you can’t blame an academic on the thread for also seeing position B as a possibility, given the Tavistock’s other work beyond GIDS.

I thought we were supposed to be the ones who upheld nuance and academic rigour?

MNadactyl · 07/03/2022 08:32

If you were adopting a "don't go overboard" approach, you'd surely find a better route than the one reported. You'd hold up his works and why they're good etc. Or you'd provide evidence to rebut the reports. But I think you'd focus on his works and why they're still useful - and give reasons. "Salacious" is a "don't look here" kind of a term.

I think where this story is concerned, there must be more to but really - time will tell. Maybe more will come out. Maybe it won't. It was leaked to a journalist who seems to do these stories as his area of interest as well (his Telegraph page has a lot of identity issue stories). So maybe whoever leaked it, has more to tell us.

OP posts:
Lovelyricepudding · 07/03/2022 08:41

Eventually found the telegraph article not behind a firewall. Another thing that jumped out at me was the general politicisation of Tavistock with increasingly explicitly political messages being encouraged in their email footers. There should be no place for that any publicly funded body.

DoNotTouchTheWater · 07/03/2022 08:56

‘Salacious’ is a ridiculous way to dismiss criticisms of the man himself.

Tbh, they’ve be best off engaging with his work about psychiatry and medicine and thinking critically about the new regimes they’re actively trying to build.

DontLikeCrumpets · 07/03/2022 09:13

@MangyInseam "They are not defending it, they are dismissing it out of hand as a dispersion motivated by homophobia."

There is no mention of homophobia. The email stated: "After his death, Foucault’s life and work were subject to a series of salacious attacks that focused on his sexual preferences."

Using "sexual preferences" is quite weaselly as it doesn't distinguish between his appetite for boys and his homosexuality.

MangyInseam · 07/03/2022 11:28

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@MangyInseam "They are not defending it, they are dismissing it out of hand as a dispersion motivated by homophobia."

There is no mention of homophobia. The email stated: "After his death, Foucault’s life and work were subject to a series of salacious attacks that focused on his sexual preferences."

Using "sexual preferences" is quite weaselly as it doesn't distinguish between his appetite for boys and his homosexuality.[/quote]
The key words are "salacious attacks" which is to say that people were accusing him of inappropriate things in order to attack him. You're meant to understand they are saying that people are attacking him of this because they are either homophobic or because they are taking advantage of societies association of homosexuality with perversion.

This is a very common tactic now if anyone accuses someone who is publicly identified as gay of some kind of inappropriate behaviour it's dismissed as a dog whistle.

It's just a more grown-up sounding version of "You just thing all gay men are perverts you homophobe!"

Whether these people know that it's probably true that MF was involved in these things but are unwilling to admit it, or whether they believe their own hype, I don't know. I have certainly spoken to people about this general topic who have been so thoughtfully convinced that any claim that someone from the lgbt+ community might be sexually inappropriate can only be a slur that they can't process any evidence of it no matter how clear.

DomesticatedZombie · 07/03/2022 11:41

Yes, the issues as far as I can see are

  1. using the term 'sexual preference' to refer to paedophilia
and
  1. using the word 'salacious' to dismiss concerns about paeophilia.

Foucault is really neither here nor there.

The issue is the group or person within the NHS - of whatever department - using these terms and what that says about their attitude towards boundaries and safeguarding.

MangyInseam · 07/03/2022 13:12

I guess it seems clear to me that when they say sexual preference they don't mean paedophilia. Rather, they are invoking sexual preference as a defense against the accusation of paedophilia.

What I wonder is why they are assuming that the accusation is homophobic in it's origins, or do they somehow believe it is not possible for a homosexual person to target young people?

Some of this thinking does seem to come from an acceptance of the idea that boys, by which they mean homosexual teenage boys, are naturally going to begin to integrate into the larger gay male culture, and that is ok. And they don't look beyond that to see what is really going on, either in terms of the ages of these kids or the money changing hands, or even the potential for exploitation even where it is consenting teenagers.