If sex is irrelevant, why are conscripts usually men and boys?

[CornflakeMum]

Looking for a genuine intellectual discussion about this. Historically it seems obvious that the reasons are
a) men/young men (boys) are bigger, stronger
b) women are smaller, less strong and more likely to be responsible for caring & looking after children/ elderly parents

BUT
In the world we now live in surely male conscription is sexist and raises all sorts of issues:

• should young women be conscripted too?
• should transwomen be conscripted?
• should transmen be accepted as conscripts?
• could a man identify as trans to avoid conscription?
• in same sex couples with children should one partner care and one be conscripted?

No animal would hunt anything to extinction
Google cats in Australia.

Why are we not stating the obvious here? It's because of rape. 1 in 3 of USA service women report being raped by their own bloody compatriot soldiers. Women prisoners of war are routinely raped eg Japanese pow camps. Brutalised soldiers rape. 100000 women raped by russian soldiers in Berlin in the second we. 80000 women raped by Japanese soldiers. And not polite rapes where everyone lives to tell the tale. Many many women raped to death. We already have reports of russian soldiers raping Ukrainian women and this ALWAYS happens. Our lives are so sanitised that its almost impossible to believe but that's why societies try to keep women out of the picture in war .

Second world war

Animals that are the product of natural selection don’t behave like that.

I’ve concluded that we are more like a fungus, behaviourally, breaking down all life on Earth, after all our species shares almost 50% of DNA with fungi and contracts many of the same diseases.

Cats in Australia is just colonialism never having a day off.

@MrsPsmalls

Why are we not stating the obvious here? It's because of rape. 1 in 3 of USA service women report being raped by their own bloody compatriot soldiers. Women prisoners of war are routinely raped eg Japanese pow camps. Brutalised soldiers rape. 100000 women raped by russian soldiers in Berlin in the second we. 80000 women raped by Japanese soldiers. And not polite rapes where everyone lives to tell the tale. Many many women raped to death. We already have reports of russian soldiers raping Ukrainian women and this ALWAYS happens. Our lives are so sanitised that its almost impossible to believe but that's why societies try to keep women out of the picture in war .

I agree that rape is a huge issue.

I have known many female friends from the military and a few have told me of their attacks. Others I have heard of second hand.

And their stories all silenced. All denied. Often at training colleges or ‘living on’. And these were all officers.

I have read some police training colleges have similar histories.

@crosstalk

There are women training to be marines, not many have tried, not sure if any have passed out yet - they have to pass all the same standards so it's pretty unlikely there will be many.

Dd has several female friends in the army, they are engineers not infantry but passed all the normal tests to the same standards as men for their regiment. She's in the navy and passed everything the men passed - less carrying of kit required when your job is to fix things, the fact she's short is helpful!

@MrsPsmalls

Why are we not stating the obvious here? It's because of rape. 1 in 3 of USA service women report being raped by their own bloody compatriot soldiers. Women prisoners of war are routinely raped eg Japanese pow camps. Brutalised soldiers rape. 100000 women raped by russian soldiers in Berlin in the second we. 80000 women raped by Japanese soldiers. And not polite rapes where everyone lives to tell the tale. Many many women raped to death. We already have reports of russian soldiers raping Ukrainian women and this ALWAYS happens. Our lives are so sanitised that its almost impossible to believe but that's why societies try to keep women out of the picture in war .

I don’t disagree about invading armies raping civilian women. But 1 in 3 US women in the US military are not raped by their fellow servicemen. That is not borne out by the reports.

Its 4-6% of US service women have been sexually assaulted. It is important to note that not all sexual assault is rape, in fact most of it is not rape but other sexual crimes like groping or kissing.

www.sapr.mil/sites/default/files/DOD_Annual_Report_on_Sexual_Assault_in_the_Military_FY2020.pdf

And having seen military silencing in action, I would never trust a report like that at all.

I take it you have some personal experience with the military to back up your assertions there cixi ?

@Helleofabore

And having seen military silencing in action, I would never trust a report like that at all.

I take it you have some personal experience with the military to back up your assertions there cixi ?

I agree the truth is probably worse than the report reflects. But still, it’s a very wide gap between 33% raped and 4-6% sexually assaulted with some % within that being raped. I wonder where the poster got her astounding 33% of US military women are raped by their colleagues figure from?

I don't know where they got that figure from.

In my experience in talking to my military female friends, the number is quite high, distressingly so. The military in my home country has had a habit of silencing it and I am very confident that it will be same in other military forces.

Considering the general public has a very high % of women simply not reporting their rapes, it is even more apparent that the true numbers will not be discovered in a military who is only paying lip service to being a safe space for females.

There may be units or divisions in some forces that might have that proportion mentioned or worse. In others, of course there would not have be that number , particularly if that with that unit there is little time spent 'living on' in base accommodation and the roles involve a minimum of away from home base exercises.

As you acknowledge, the number is likely to be higher. But, I would not be surprised to find it higher than you think it is.

@TomPinch

Mangyinseam,

I'm not anything like a military person but ISTM that eurochick and others do have a point. If you compare how war is waged since the last time the UK had conscription, it's completely changed. WW2 was won by massive infantry armies in long marching columns supported by tanks and heavy artillery. The Germans lost, how many, maybe a million at the Battle of Stalingrad? Aeroplanes weren't as developed explosives weren't as, well, as explosive, and missiles were only a thing at the end of the war.

What would modem military equipment do to a column of poor bloody infantry with their single-shot Lee-Enfield rifles today?

I think the point is that there will always be roles that require extra strength / fitness, meaning men would generally do them, e.g front line infantry, however a modern army would need far fewer of them and more people in other combat roles that women could do as well as men.

Agreed.

In a UK context, we're just not likely to experience the sort of invasion currently going on in Ukraine. We have one land border, with a neighbour who clearly wouldn't attempt it, and for anyone else the logistics would put them off. Anyone wanting to declare war on the UK would likely want to use more complex and indirect methods, rather than the sort where all hands on deck is a useful response.

With that in mind, I think any conscription would be more likely to be targeted, focused on skills and abilities needed. Rather than sheer numbers and physical ability.

@Helleofabore
As you acknowledge, the number is likely to be higher. But, I would not be surprised to find it higher than you think it is.

Why? You don’t know what I think. You are extrapolating your “home country” and your “female military friends” experiences and thinking it applies to all military women in all countries. That’s hardly scientific and less reliable source of information than the report I posted which tallies all the reports made by actual US military women. Yes, I agree rapes and sexual assault are under-reported but again, it’s a massive leap to get to 1 in 3 are raped by their colleagues. Again, I’d like to see their source before believing such an extraordinary claim.

So. No personal experience then Cixi. Good to note.

@Helleofabore

So. No personal experience then Cixi. Good to note.

Well, neither do you have personal experience as you have said merely that you have friends who have experience in another country’s military. Not the US or U.K. military. I don’t think friends count towards our personal experience. FWIW I have female family members in the U.K. military who have served with the US military in Afghanistan and Iraq. Does that mean I now trump you? Lol.

@veevee04

I used to be in the cadets and I was a very good shot with a rifle a lot better than most of the boys Probably hand to hand I'd be crap I think as females we rubbish ourselves when I would be a better shot than a lot of the male conscripts. I do have medical training so would be better used treating people, I wouldn't like being conscripted but fair being fair I am probably valuable to a war effort.

Women often do very well at shooting, especially compred to young men, because they listen to instructions better. And with teens there is less of a size differential. When you get to elite shooting men have an advantage because body mass affects how steady they are, and sometimes upper body strength. But that's target shooting.

In terms of going out on patrols or battles, it's more about weight, how much you can carry, even the length of your legs. I was on a course once where we were doing several forced marches a week. One kid was about 6'5, he wasn't even in that great shape, but he never broke a sweat. He just covered so much ground. I was one of four women there, and so on the shortish side, but there was one girl who was really short, about 5'4. She actually had to jog the whole time. She was very fit, but she was starting from a disadvantage in terms of keeping up.

Men are expendable, it's as simple as that.

I don't think 3 out of four women in the military are raped by their fellow soldiers. I spent 10 years in and I think that is extremely unlikely. I think it happens for sure, and if you want to talk about things like groping it would be a lot higher (though also for men in that case.) But not that high.

@LyricalBlowToTheJaw the UK doesn't have a land border with anyone? The UK is an island.

Unless you mean ENGLAND has a land border with SCOTLAND and/or WALES??

The UK has a land border on the island of Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

Well there you go.

Can you tell I fell for the old "too many people think England = UK" though process.

Oops

Thanks and sorry. 😘

Yes, I thought you might have got stuck on that

You know, it's one of those moments I'll re-live for ever in my head, mentally kicking myself as I do.

Oh well, maybe it will displace another moment.

When my son got a load of diagnoses I honestly thought great now he's off any potential conscript list... and I wouldn't want my daughter either. Or anyones...