Australia fighting back against TW in women's sport?

[oviraptor21]

The PM has backed a bill to exclude transgender women from women's sport:
www.theguardian.com/society/2022/feb/22/scott-morrison-backs-bill-that-allows-exclusion-of-transgender-people-from-single-sex-sports

Good news.
I'm tired of seeing womens achievements being taken away by men. Men, women, mixed should be sufficient.

The language here is telling. "Exclusion of transgender people from single sex sports".
That's not what the issue is, nobody is being excluded from single sex sports. It's just unfair to women if trans women are competing in the wrong sex category.
Funnily enough, it doesn't seem like trans men want to compete in the wrong sex category, for some reason.

I have just seen this tweet which has got me thinking about those who tweet ‘but the rules allow these people to compete so they aren’t cheating’.

From cathydevine56 on twitter.

Ethics and respect.
Darwell's 2 types of respect: recognition and appraisal. The 1st recognises personhood. The 2nd is contingent on character. TW competing in ♀️ sport categories appear not to recognise ♀️ and their sexed bodies. Females are not given recognition respect. 1/

So although the main offenders wrt to the recognition respect due to female athletes are governing bodies, TW also carry some responsibility. They have agency. They could give due recogniton respect to female athletes and choose not to compete in female categories. 2/

If TW athletes do not do this, although we might afford them recognition respect as people who are TW, we might also withhold appraisal respect. There are, of course, TW who do do this, for whom we have both recognition and appraisal respect. End.

twitter.com/cathydevine56/status/1495369519912599553?s=21

I mean. This can be applied for other aspects too. Anywhere that males know females need to have single sex provisions but feel their needs trump female’s needs.

It gets said on this board a lot, by me and many others. Those declaring transitioned males should be in single sex spaces are saying those males cannot respect the needs of female’s for whom the spaces have been created, including sport, when women have said they want them to remain single sex.

Apparently they let any idiot have a newspaper column in Australia:

Confected outrage over trans people in sport is headed for implosion

Really?

A terrific bill?

Addressing what problem, exactly?

In how many sports in Australia has this become such a dominant issue that we have had a single sports CEO or Chair, calling for it?

I’ll wait ...

One more time. Can you point to a sport in Australia that is calling for this legislation? No? Well, if there is not a problem, why are they doing it?

As a matter of fact, how big a problem is it worldwide? Yes, yes, yes, every now and then it really does arise where a trans woman of seeming male strength seems to dominate. But, much?

I have always found Peter Fitzsimmons a bit of a dick to be fair. He is a well known sports person. But is a bit of a dick none the less.

The logical error of course is that if sports CEOs and chairs were standing up for women's sports, there wouldn't be any need for women to call for laws to enforce their rights...

This is women using the democratic process to force them to do the right thing, because they apparently don't want to.

Does he think no corporate legislation is needed unless there are CEOs calling for it?

It also makes no logical sense either because sports CEOs and chairs would be relying on staying quiet to maintain their funding. And the country is so spread out that the majority of those will simply not be cognisant of the changes.

Either way, that Fitzsimmons relies on Miller's testimony in anything say all we need to know about it. He doesn't have balance and has a male informing him on male inclusion in female sport. I have to admit that I have never met anyone who actually follows what Fitzsimmons says about anything other than the different codes of football.

Having read a comment elsewhere, and rechecked the articles, I see I may have misinterpreted this.

Guardian: to allow sporting groups to exclude transgender people from single-sex sports.

SMH: Claire Chandler who wants to pass legislation so that sports could exclude transgender people from single-sex sports without penalty

So is this actually about going from a situation where they can't exclude them, to the current UK status quo?

So not actually compelling anything, but removing a current ban on female-only sport?

Peter Fitzsimons. White, enormous, intelligent, v expensive boys school, rugby. Éminent qualified to speak to the safety of women playing against men in contact sports and how they feel in change rooms sharing with men.

That legislation is to stop the problem going any further than it already has.

@NecessaryScene

Having read a comment elsewhere, and rechecked the articles, I see I may have misinterpreted this.

Guardian: to allow sporting groups to exclude transgender people from single-sex sports.

SMH: Claire Chandler who wants to pass legislation so that sports could exclude transgender people from single-sex sports without penalty

So is this actually about going from a situation where they can't exclude them, to the current UK status quo?

So not actually compelling anything, but removing a current ban on female-only sport?

I’m not sure - gender identity is not one of the 12 protected attributes in Australia and the states all have slightly different rules on GRCs and how easy it is to get them. Does this mean they already have self id to sex (as the protected attribute) or that they mean those with a GRC or just that they don’t have the power to enforce single sex sport at all?

I’ve seen save women’s sports asking people to write to their members/ senators etc

The twitter feed under Fitzsimmons post seems like a love-in for Miller at the moment.

It is quite something to see the ‘we don’t win so why is an issue’ come out so clearly. The degree that Miller really doesn’t like women (or anyone really) who disagree with them is very evident.

Here is a copy of the bill.

www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Bills_Legislation/Bills_Search_Results/Result?bId=s1336

It makes it very clear that the distinction is female and male and that it will not be unlawful to exclude those wishing to play in the opposite sex.

Does not go so far as go say that it would be unlawful to compete in the opposite sex category though.
So imo does not go far enough - just leaves it up to each sporting body.

It looks from reading this that Australians as on the whole believe that children can be born in the wrong bodies.

No scrollingleaves that is not the case. Some people do obviously, but on the whole? No.

@Plasmodesmata

The language here is telling. "Exclusion of transgender people from single sex sports". That's not what the issue is, nobody is being excluded from single sex sports. It's just unfair to women if trans women are competing in the wrong sex category. Funnily enough, it doesn't seem like trans men want to compete in the wrong sex category, for some reason.

Yes baffling why transmen aren't trying to get into men's sorts!

But yeah, I was surprised that Australians had been going along with all this madness tbh I thought they'd be one of the first in the "west" to say no way to this stuff so glad they seem to be pushing back now

I think Australia is still in be kind mode. Gay marriage only came in 2017 and it’s actually quite religious- lots of the big private schools are faith based.

This is starting to come in with teenagers in schools and had been pushed within the LGBTIQ community in workplaces but doesn’t seem to have the same numbers on the ground yet so people aren’t face to face with the issue.

In America I was shocked to see a documentary about a trans little girl Kai Shappley whose mother was very religious.

When her little boy was less than three she thought oh no he might be gay that can’t happen. This was because he was not like his brothers and because he liked some girl’s things. She started to pray and look up conversion therapy. She said she “spanked him, really spanked him” ( eg abuse) if he played with girl’s toys or girl’s clothes but he wouldn’t stop and insisted he was a girl.

When the little boy aged 4 started talking about going to be with Jesus forever she decided he was trans. She had read about the suicide rate of trans kids she said. She did not see that her treatment might have caused his despair.

It seems that for her being trans was preferable to his possibly being gay when he grew up.

Perhaps there is a similar trans preferring religious element among some Australians.

www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-23/transgender-advocates-speak-out-against-transgender-sport-bill/100853022

The media is not giving a very balanced view

I am surprised at the narrative being pushed here to be honest. It is the ‘scale’ argument. It is a ‘non-existent’ issue? Well, no. It isn’t.

Let’s see.

There was Layt who claimed a gong meant for women (didn’t they not even tell the coach until well into their time playing NSW women’s rugby? Imagine the concussive harm that female players faced and weren’t even informed).

There was Mianne Bagger playing women’s professional golf around that same time. And they got the regulations changed to allow them to compete as a woman in golf.

There is Mouncey. Coughlin.

And the ever vocal and seemingly not ever able to understand the fact they could never be a menopausal female and still play women’s rugby as they do- Miller (also ex male water sports champion). (Yeah, really Miller? Peri or menopausal women playing women’s rugby with the 18-35 year olds? And not getting serious injuries, and still being able to keep up and tackle? Yeah?)

This is just off the top of my head. And at high level (elite?- Miller is not currently I guess) participation in Australia.

Yet, those arguing against the bill are saying it is a non-existent issue. I am disappointed by the media coverage on this. It seems that Fitzsimmons also forgot that he was arguing against Mouncey playing at state level a few years ago. Yet seems to have been ‘educated’ by Miller now.

And even saying the problem doesn’t currently exist - even though it does, it has, Mouncey alone has negatively impacted hundreds of women - that’s a tacit admission that the problem could exist soon. Senator Chandler is making sure we don’t get to the situation like Lia Thomas before it gets out of hand.

So not only is it wrong to try and claw back women’s rights, it’s wrong to protect them from future problems that occur elsewhere .