Debbie Hayton on Sport in the Times

[Igneococcus]

And again comments have been turned off. What the fuck is the Times doing? I appreciate that they publish these articles and comments in the first place but I'd like to know who made the decision to close all comments and why.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ddb0630e-940a-11ec-9aec-82f0032d4cd3?shareToken=ecfc9e612d9d78462222332babd94681

Thanks for link.

So refreshing to hear the straight-talking from the Aussie PM. Wonder if he fancies a secondment?!

[quote Igneococcus]And again comments have been turned off. What the fuck is the Times doing? I appreciate that they publish these articles and comments in the first place but I'd like to know who made the decision to close all comments and why.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ddb0630e-940a-11ec-9aec-82f0032d4cd3?shareToken=ecfc9e612d9d78462222332babd94681[/quote]
There were about 40 comments about an hour ago. I had intended to comment myself. Most comments were praising DH for her article. And praising the Australian PM. One reply did mention something about DH writing policy for schools that meant children to use certain pronouns. A couple of comments mentioned that The Times recently turns off comments in trans articles.

(Thank you for your links, I have a subscription but it’s helpful we all can read these articles in order to discuss and progress)

Just been covered (first billing) in the Today programme newspaper review.

I don't see why we need an "open" category as Dr Hayton suggests.

Hayton advancing the trans cause as usual, while women look the other way and see it being about women's rights.

So refreshing to hear the straight-talking from the Aussie PM. Wonder if he fancies a secondment?!

Will I get a deletion if I quote Scott Morrison? Because it did make me laugh, and MNHQ this is a direct quote from radio 4 Today program as I was driving into work.

"Trans Sheilas are not Sheilas"

I think he qualified that with something along the lines of at least not where sport is concerned, but I'm pretty sure he would count sex as a sport too if asked.

I would support the creation of an open/trans category. It gets the men out of women’s sport, would probably not be as fussed about doping and removes any argument about being forced out of sports. It wouldn’t get as much media attention or funding, but gives transitioners a choice - stay in your own sex lane or move to the open competition.

@Crouton19

I would support the creation of an open/trans category. It gets the men out of women’s sport, would probably not be as fussed about doping and removes any argument about being forced out of sports. It wouldn’t get as much media attention or funding, but gives transitioners a choice - stay in your own sex lane or move to the open competition.

They are not forced out of sport. The trans women just compete in the men’s category. Which is what currently happens for trans men who stay in completion in the women’s sections and nobody fusses about that.

@Crouton19

I would support the creation of an open/trans category. It gets the men out of women’s sport, would probably not be as fussed about doping and removes any argument about being forced out of sports. It wouldn’t get as much media attention or funding, but gives transitioners a choice - stay in your own sex lane or move to the open competition.

The issue there is that they won't get any funding as all competitors will be mediocre - or they would compete in their sex class and earn the realy money, kudos etc.

It's a nice idea but wouldn't work for squillions of reasons, including that it just isn't what mediocre performers some transwomen want.

I commented on this article last night, and it was finally approved at 2am according to my emails - this morning the comments had been turned off. I feel incensed by this.

If the issue is the workload for the moderators, why not keep the 40-or-so comments that had been approved under the rules, and then stop any further comments? At least that would give people the opportunity to like comments...

The only reason can be to disguise the fact that so many people are up in arms about this.

Has anyone here complained to The Times? I'm sure many general subscribers have. I just wondered what their reply was.

I agree they are not actually being forced out, but it removes the argument. And as I stated, the other option would be to stay in their own sex category. I couldn’t give a fig if they get as much funding (they won’t) but for the sake of saving women’s sports for women, this seems like a good solution.

@TinselAngel

I don't see why we need an "open" category as Dr Hayton suggests.

Hayton advancing the trans cause as usual, while women look the other way and see it being about women's rights.

Cricket and Athletics both have Open and Female categories, but self-id is being used in both sports last time I checked.

Has anyone here complained to The Times? I'm sure many general subscribers have. I just wondered what their reply was.

I haven't complained yet, but this is the 2nd article today that I've seen the 'comments turned off' announcement. The other one was about the head of Rape Crisis in Scotland.

I've found this: Corrections or complaints: [email protected]

@TinselAngel

I don't see why we need an "open" category as Dr Hayton suggests.

Hayton advancing the trans cause as usual, while women look the other way and see it being about women's rights.

Yup.

The same Debbie Hayton who co-wrote the guidance for schools which said that males should be allowed into female toilets.

Advocates for Open/Female argue that it removes identity from the process and just focuses on male sporting advantage and ignores identity.
Jon Pike explains it better than me twitter.com/gbnews/status/1495510124684877831?s=21

The same Debbie Hayton who co-wrote the guidance for schools which said that males should be allowed into female toilets.

And that school children need to call Hayton and every other tw, Miss.

I don't see why we need an "open" category as Dr Hayton suggests.

I think it makes perfect sense to have an open category. Especially if it stops the current situation whereby the women's category has become an open category and the men get to keep their category all to themselves.

I'm pretty sure that to comply with The Equality Act the categories would need to be Women, Men and Open. If there are not enough competitors for the Open category they can compete in their own category at the same time as the men.

@Signalbox

I don't see why we need an "open" category as Dr Hayton suggests.

I think it makes perfect sense to have an open category. Especially if it stops the current situation whereby the women's category has become an open category and the men get to keep their category all to themselves.

My preference would be that we keep things simple, as they have always been until recently. Men v men, women v women.

@Witheringtong

I'm pretty sure that to comply with The Equality Act the categories would need to be Women, Men and Open. If there are not enough competitors for the Open category they can compete in their own category at the same time as the men.

I’m intrigued why you say that. Why would it be against the Equality Act?

My preference would be that we keep things simple, as they have always been until recently. Men v men, women v women

Essentially an "open" category would be men v men (regardless of how they "identify"). And it would leave the female category for female people.

Open for me would be men, men who identify as women and women on testosterone. That way you preserve the Womens category.

CatsOperatingInGangs In the same way that having only Mens and Other toilets discriminate against women. Sex affected activities need sex based categories, and I don't see how thats controversial.

Plus we all know if one group ends up as Other, it will be women. There are already people on social media telling sportswomen to be kind, lower their expectations and treat it as a bit of fun.

But Open and Womens doesn’t discriminate against women. It ringfences Womens for women and everyone else of regardless of sex or gender can compete in the Open.

Lots of sports are already open and women's. It's just that the only people in open are men.

Professional hockey for example is not restricted to men, even though there has only ever been, at least last time I looked, one female professional hockey player.

There is often nothing in the rules that prevents women from entering men's sports competitions.