How do the people who believe gender is more important than sex think about the sport issue?

[PermanentTemporary]

I'm not going to ask posters in good faith to expose themselves on here (though if you do, thank you) and the classroom monitors never post on the sport threads. But anyone who understands the pro gender argument on sport?

I've seen some arguments that I do agree with. It is absolutely true that women's sport has historically been 'lesser' or not existed for sexist reasons - Victorian arguments that women shouldn't do sport at all because it might affect their fertility, or their health, or that it would mean exposing their bodies. And sexist arguments that women's sport has no value because women aren't as strong as men. And the issue that Title IX was meant to fix in the US, that women's sport wasn't funded properly because men weren't interested. And the fact that there are sporting events where women have won overall - ultrarunning for example, or that category of shooting which was unisex until a woman won the Olympic title, and the sexes were immediately separated after that.

I will accept all those, and believe that the only solution is probably open categories, with gatekept XX categories which include certain DSDs on a specific basis (probably only women with Swyer syndrome and CAIS would qualify).

I find it incredible that anyone can genuinely and convincingly defend the current mess in sport. The aim at present seems to be to pretend that the current situation is how it's been for a long time, and no changes can be made without more evidence, while shouting down any efforts to provide such evidence by eg keeping records of people's sex.

I suppose the big change came in 2003 and for a huge number of competitive sportspeople, that's before they were born, or when they were tiny.

According to some TRAs, it’s just like including women with VSDs

While excluding women with disabilities, faiths, beliefs, cultures and traumas from any resources at all, so that male people can have them.

No it's got nothing to do with any care for 'inclusion'. Or women.

And the second point there:

anything at all will be appropriated at any time, without the faintest conscience or regard for truth if there is the slightest hope of it working as a lever to strip sex based rights from females.

@Adrianneanneanne

Still there's no answer as to why we can't just have trans categories. It's almost like a shame thing. Surely the rational thing to do is have a separate group, not pretend you're identical to born women

That would mean using common sense. The Emperor's New Clothes looms large in this debate (as with NFTs - people seem to like being hoodwinked).

@Ursusmajor

I think people don’t realise that this issue isn’t just about elite sportswomen. I did some secondary school in a co-ed school and some in a girls’ only school. I am NOT a sportswoman and never will be. But PE was much more fun in the girls’ only school. The boys not being there to physically dominate the games meant all the girls could play and have their actions actually make a difference to the outcome of the game. I also played a little bit of football as a teen in an all girls inter-school competition. We were a terrible team. Seriously bad. But it was fun and good for us to play anyway. Only having the option of mixed-sex teams would have meant I never played at all.

My daughter is encountering this now. When I was er age (15) we had separate gym classes from the boys about 80% of the time. They now combine them, saying "oh we don't do that any more" as if it is terribly old fashioned.

Except when they get to playing basketball or hockey etc, it's pretty clear that there is a gap. And not all the boys are good at playing down to the lowest common denominator, and a lot of the girls are intimidated, or just don't find it fun, and they hate gym class.

I've seen various arguments for including TW in women's sport. Very few for including TM in men's sports. Arguments tend to follow one of more of the following:

TWAW. Anything other is transphobic. No debate.
Inclusion.
Their team mates/competitors don't complain
The stress and medical difficulty of transitioning means no unfair advantage.
Sport x is already inclusive of both sexes.
No evidence that TW have an advantage.
Bell curve of men and bell curve of women has a small area of overlap and therefore no competitive advantage.
DSD
Etc

Safety, fairness, science tend not to feature. Nor do TM.

Key points are:

1. Misunderstanding or lying about intra and inter class differences: "Sports is all about genetic advantages". Yes, it is, but we control for it by having a sex class. So comparing within sex class differences to between class differences is false.

1. Lying about science: They actually believe the science says HRT removes the differences. Some cite that US army study which shows alignment in I believe press ups. They ignore every other study that shows advantages remain. They ignore actual evidence from Laurel Hubbard who despite never achieving anything as a male, being on HRT for years, becomes an Olympian aged 43 when most women peak in strength long, long before that.

1. The usual woke lies such as "well they are women" or "they face so much oppression that actually hinders their sporting ability" or "it is just a game"

Oh I forgot the DSD card, where magically males without DSD should compete against females, because tada, DSD conditions exist.

@WarriorN

I think it's mostly other women supporting it.

From what I've noticed of these women, they tune into the "under dog" (probably due to being women and experiencing various types of sexism) and see these males as the under dog.

Experiencing a version of perceived sexism and "oppression." These women have so much empathy that they become blind to anything else.

There are few "normal" men who support this. Only the vehement TRAs eg OJ. (I've never seen him talk about sport though?)

Absolutely agree with this. In my contact team sport, many of the (younger) women were pro having transwomen play in the league. Several remained silent (no idea what they thought) and I was vehemently against it. The male coach agreed with me.

Absolutely warrior it seems to be "compassionate" women eager to throw away women's protections for a vocal minority group. Most men (DH an example) are very very cynical about other men's motives in a way many naive (sorry but they are) women are not and frankly should be.

Could someone point me to the evidence that Semenya uses male pronouns, doesn't identify as female, and was married in a country where homosexuality is illegal? I wouldn't want to repeat those things unless they are definitely true, and I read, for example, that she was married in Pretoria in 2015 (South Africa legalised same sex marriage in 2006).

@SlowDog

Could someone point me to the evidence that Semenya uses male pronouns, doesn't identify as female, and was married in a country where homosexuality is illegal? I wouldn't want to repeat those things unless they are definitely true, and I read, for example, that she was married in Pretoria in 2015 (South Africa legalised same sex marriage in 2006).

Yeah, I am sure the marriage bit is not true.

Its a difficult question as it depends on what kind of important you mean. Its more important in some ways, especially if youre suffering with it, but less in others.

I do think sports should be restricted to boilogical sex as the advantages and unfairness is glaringly obvious

Truth and Kerala, it was when the idiocy started to infect extremely good breastfeeding peer support groups, parroted by people I'd previously rather respected for their dedication to for example setting up sling libraries and helping new mums access bf support. I could tell there was an overwhelming sense of sjw / 'these people are so disadvantaged.'

The other type of woman in those groups doing this is herself identifying as non binary / "queer" and very angry. I see a mix of trauma and depression. They need to believe this. This is their "community." But they know they still need female communities and they can't cope that we don't agree.

Now a community that's interesting to look into is the circus world (specifically acrobatic performers.) They had a big fracturing a few years ago where one prominent circus person was ostracised for daring to say trans ideology was an issue and damaging to bodies.

Last time I looked at a public fb group, they'd got round the v tricky issue if the fact that women are simply not as strong as men (watch any acrobatic display!) by labelling them xx people and xy people....

Those are interesting conversations as they're clearly clear this is not people with dsds. They talk openly about impact of strength to males. This though allows more self id and non medication.

It's the women who again are more affected. They could take some testosterone (I didn't see a conversation about that.) I saw one female performer had chosen to have a mastectomy. She was a contortionist so I imagine actually needs her flexibility and any hormonal treatment could affect that.

It reminds me of an opera singer who identifies as male but obviously can't take testosterone as that would affect the vocal chords.

Can't find that group but "juggling world" public group is an interesting read as they're discussing unfair representation of women....

@MangyInseam - frankly why should the boys be playing down to the lowest common denominator? They should be playing football etc with other boys! (As an aside I think PE should be set: as a galumphing idiot with two useless-at-PE dcs, no one benefited from all-ability PE and Games.) I was scared at school of the larger girls playing hockey and netball. I think I would have run a mile if boys or trans pupils had been thundering towards me.

To return to OP: the fact is that the most militant state that TWAW - end of argument. If you are built like Conan the Barbarian but feel (even if twice a week) like a woman, then that’s that. No debate.

[quote DottyHarmer]@MangyInseam - frankly why should the boys be playing down to the lowest common denominator? They should be playing football etc with other boys! (As an aside I think PE should be set: as a galumphing idiot with two useless-at-PE dcs, no one benefited from all-ability PE and Games.) I was scared at school of the larger girls playing hockey and netball. I think I would have run a mile if boys or trans pupils had been thundering towards me.

To return to OP: the fact is that the most militant state that TWAW - end of argument. If you are built like Conan the Barbarian but feel (even if twice a week) like a woman, then that’s that. No debate.[/quote]
I agree with you to a point.

But school PE class does tend to be a time when you will have some kids who are much more proficient than others even in single sex settings. Sometimes that can be managed by breaking up the group, but other times it just has to be more of a recreational rather than seriously competitive game.

But where there are enough students to have the girls and boys separate it just seems odd to never take that opportunity. That age group in particular often will struggle with mixed sex games.