Pronouns in the Sunday Times

[McDuffy]

I read this as a "pro" article given the she/her in the sub title, some balance given by the wonderful simon fanshawe. The comments add more value than the article, the Sunday edition still allows them

To ‘she’ or not to ‘she’: will you put pronouns on your emails?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b9327b7a-90d1-11ec-ba83-35d92f80c266?shareToken=12803615b4dae39e740510e730e9bb31

The comments!!!
Do we include our ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability, age, religious beliefs to our email signature? I wonder why not?

How do I view the comments?

I read the (she/her) in the subtitle as somewhat tongue in cheek.

Suki Sandhu, the founder of Audeliss, a recruitment firm that focuses on diversity, believes that adding pronouns to email signatures benefits staff and company culture more widely. “It signals that the company is an inclusive workplace for those who are LGBT+ and saves people who have unexpected pronouns or have changed their pronouns having to explain and correct them several times a day.”

This isn’t just of benefit to the trans community, he adds. “Many women will be able to relate to how often they are mistakenly referred to as ‘he’ if they have a gender-neutral name — especially if they are in a relative position of power where people still default to assuming they are a man,” says Sandhu.

and

Fanshawe sees it as the “worst kind of virtue-signalling” for those who are not transgender: “Stop making the conversation about you. It’s not about you. Trans people need healthcare, time off work; they don’t need us all diving into gender ideology that is divisive.”

I agree with Simon Fanshawe's comment.

Suki Sandhu's comment shows quite starckly how this whole drive is about the 'T' - to me anyway. It was a hell of a move by the T community to add identity to the LGB. How does adding pronouns signal that the company is an inclusive workplace for those who are LGB? Quite aside from the fact that my sexuality is nobody's business except mine, But it seems that a trans status is everyone's business because everyone else is expected to affirm and validate.

And I have been called 'Mr' on the phone before (my voice is fairly deep anyway, more so if I have a bad throat), Big bloody deal, I could not care less. This obsession with 'misgendering' tells me that those who get in a flap about it are not confident in what they would claim is their real, authentic self. If they were, they would brush it off like the rest of us. I'm not totally without empathy - I can see that it must be difficult to see yourself one way but realise that others don't share your view of yourself. Another reason to keep this ideology away from children.

Picking up on a comment from the article that was quoted above, if women with ambiguous names are "misgendered", surely that would work to their advantage?

We all know that men and men's ideas are listened to more than women in many workplaces, so adding pronouns, drawing attention to their sex, can put women at a disadvantage.

Fanshaw states that women don't always want to advertise thier sex as it disadvantages them

Where do I know the name "Suki Sandhu" from? They've come up before, I'm sure.

How do I load the comments for some reason it doesn't seem to work any more

Picking up on a comment from the article that was quoted above, if women with ambiguous names are "misgendered", surely that would work to their advantage?

It would, wouldn't it? Interesting that Sandhu highlights that this is more likely if they are in a senior role where people are more likely to assume male.

And the inbuilt assumption of male default/ you will be misgendered if you are female with an ambiguous name , my inference you won't be if you are male

I’m a woman with a name that often gets me misgendered - I appreciate the concern, but there really is no need to worry about me, Suki.

@DonnieDark

How do I view the comments?

I can’t see any comments either…

This isn’t just of benefit to the trans community, he adds. “Many women will be able to relate to how often they are mistakenly referred to as ‘he’ if they have a gender-neutral name — especially if they are in a relative position of power where people still default to assuming they are a man,” says Sandhu.

Wonder whether he's actually asked any women whether it bothers them or disadvantages them in any way when someone they've never met assumes they're a man? Or whether he's even thought it through properly? I suspect not. He clearly isn't concerned for women. If you can accidentally help them, then great - that will keep some critics at bay. But actually consider any negative impact on them? Why bother??

I sometimes get emails from colleagues I haven't met assuming I'm male. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. At least I know they're not going to treat me differently for being female - which definitely happens and does disadvantage me.

It definitely does bother and disadvantage me that people assume that senior or technical people are male. But me stating pronouns won't change that assumption! It will just make those same people assume that I'm not senior or technical.

@anothersmahedmug

And the inbuilt assumption of male default/ you will be misgendered if you are female with an ambiguous name , my inference you won't be if you are male

I wonder if there is an element of erring on the side of caution? Which is more likely to cause embarrassment in our sexist culture - thinking a woman is a man or mistaking a man for a woman? In that context, makes sense to give someone an ‘upgrade’ to maleness rather than the reverse.

I have a gender-neutral name. I find it an advantage that people assume I'm male. They tend to be harder work once they know I'm female.

To put it another way: if people assume that senior/technical = male, well which mistake would I rather they made about me??

Whilst working, my job role is more important than my sex.

Not playing. If someone assumes I'm a bloke because of my job title and in spite of my first name it's not my responsibility to spare their blushes.

I read the (she/her) in the subtitle as somewhat tongue in cheek
So did I initially, but then I checked and realised that Rosamund Urwin has previously written piffle on this
whole subject in the past. I get the impression she’s possibly in the ‘be kind’ camp rather than fully immersed though.

Interesting that Simon Fanshawe was a founder of Stonewall yet doesn't support the need for everyone to unnecessarily announce their pronouns.

Suki Sandu is CEO of the diversity training org the BBC hired to take over from stonewall www.involvepeople.org/role-model-lists/

He is a stonewall ambassador

@PatterPaws

Interesting that Simon Fanshawe was a founder of Stonewall yet doesn't support the need for everyone to unnecessarily announce their pronouns.

I think the Stonewall that he founded is very different to the Stonewall of today

My grandma intentionally shortened her name to a unisex variant during the 1970s because being mistaken for a man was so advantageous. In fact she tells rather funny stories about pretending to be her own secretary to deal with some of the sexism she faced.

Suki Sandu is CEO of the diversity training org the BBC hired to take over from stonewall

Aha! Thank you!

@MoltenLasagne

My grandma intentionally shortened her name to a unisex variant during the 1970s because being mistaken for a man was so advantageous. In fact she tells rather funny stories about pretending to be her own secretary to deal with some of the sexism she faced.

Send me a DM to let me know when you start a thread sharing some of them, please!

“Suki Sandhu, the founder of Audeliss, a recruitment firm that focuses on diversity, believes that adding pronouns to email signatures benefits staff and company culture more widely. “It signals that the company is an inclusive workplace for those who are LGBT+ and saves people who have unexpected pronouns or have changed their pronouns having to explain and correct them several times a day.”

Why does it help people who are LGB ( which are sexual orientations not requiring pronouns at all)?

Or is it now believed that a trans women is a lesbian and a trans man gay?