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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hadley Freeman Margaret Attwood article guardian today

65 replies

SadWordlePlayer · 19/02/2022 11:33

Apologies if there is already a thread. Very interesting.

Pity their email exchanges after the interview are off the record!

www.theguardian.com/books/ng-interactive/2022/feb/19/margaret-atwood-on-feminism-culture-wars

OP posts:
2Rebecca · 19/02/2022 11:52

That is an excellent interview.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/02/2022 11:52

Yes I thought it was very interesting how MA got annoyed & defensive, threw out DSD & then said move on

I would love to know what was said in the email exchange because from that it came across as she really hadn’t a clue about the issues which I found hard to believe….

But it ends with her agreeing that truth matters which suggests she does believe biological sex is real & matters

Franca123 · 19/02/2022 12:01

Again, no explanation of the gender woo side of the argument. It makes me a bit sad as I can only conclude she's feeling bullied and threatened into this position. A leading feminist who no doubt has influenced many people's thinking on women's rights. Even she can't stand up against the weight of the genderists.

Lottapianos · 19/02/2022 12:09

Hadley is such a great interviewer. Agree that Atwood got very defensive in the interview but glad that their email exchanges afterwards were more thoughtful and productive

KimikosNightmare · 19/02/2022 12:16

@Franca123

Again, no explanation of the gender woo side of the argument. It makes me a bit sad as I can only conclude she's feeling bullied and threatened into this position. A leading feminist who no doubt has influenced many people's thinking on women's rights. Even she can't stand up against the weight of the genderists.
I don't like Atwood, never have. I've always found her writing quite repulsive in the way she seems to enjoy piling misery on her female characters.

I'm not interested one way or the other about whether she's "gender critical" but Atwood is rich enough and feted enough that she could "stand up" if she wanted to.

Lottapianos · 19/02/2022 12:17

'I'm not interested one way or the other about whether she's "gender critical" but Atwood is rich enough and feted enough that she could "stand up" if she wanted to.'

Very true

SamphiretheStickerist · 19/02/2022 12:22

So... We're left with ... ashes.

We both want the truth

Atwood isn't a demigod

She's an 82 year old woman who could, if she chose to, stand behind her writing career and say clearly: women are as capable of the full gamut of human behaviours, good, bad and the ugly. But sex matters. Women's rights matter and no man is ever a woman.

But she won't, because what? She wants some other truth?

I remain conflicted. Love the books am perplexed by the woman!

Franca123 · 19/02/2022 12:31

But she clearly doesn't believe what she saying. She's unable to explain her position or talk about it with passion. So why is she doing it?

dangerrabbit · 19/02/2022 13:13

Attwood could do a J K Rowling, but chooses not to.

TheGreatATuin · 19/02/2022 13:19

I saw Atwood in person at an event a few years ago. The main thing that struck me was that she seemed quite taken with her own importance and clearly expected to be fawned over. She was quite rude to the person interviewing her.
I came away a little disappointed.
This was before she'd waded into the whole gender identity debate so I had no idea what her take on it was, but I'm not surprised now.

SweetGrapes · 19/02/2022 13:19

@Franca123

But she clearly doesn't believe what she saying. She's unable to explain her position or talk about it with passion. So why is she doing it?
Exactly. This always puzzles me. The grownups who don't say anything. Why? Just why? There are always playground bullies... but who lets them sit at the Principals desk? Why? She has nothing to loose, so why?
TheGreatATuin · 19/02/2022 13:29

I think its because she's become the type pf person who refuses to admit she's wrong about anything.
If someone challenges her, she'll take it personally.
Because she's been challenged so much on this, I think she'll refuse to give anyone the satisfaction of admitting she may have been wrong.
And I think this refusal extends to even challenging her own assumptions even privately.

DontLikeCrumpets · 19/02/2022 13:49

@TheGreatATuin "The main thing that struck me was that she seemed quite taken with her own importance..."

That's my impression as well. I so recoil at her sense of self-importance, I've never been tempted to read her books.

It seems a lesson here is that those who are taken with their own importance fall prey to others with the same attitude.

maslinpan · 19/02/2022 13:53

I think it's going to be doubly hard to take a GC position in Canada. However, at her age you might hope she had the courage to say the unsayable.

maslinpan · 19/02/2022 13:54

And I did think it is of note that Hadley fully explored the issue in her interview, it wasn't avoided or skated over.

NoThankYouPossom · 19/02/2022 14:15

My impression of Atwood is that she takes pride in gratuitous rudeness, mistakenly believing it to demonstrate strength of character or independence of mind or liberation or some such.

Much as I like some of her books, she strikes me as someone much more concerned with being thought by others (in the social strata to which she belongs) to be well-informed, wise and "on the right side of history" than actually thinking things through and seeking after truth regardless of disapprobation she might receive from the very people she'd like to think well of her.

That's the fundamental difference between her and JK Rowling as I see it - it seems to me that Rowling has deep respect for and commitment to truth, decency and actual kindness that she cleaves to in defiance of her own ego or self-interest. That is why I have such admiration for her.

NoThankYouPossom · 19/02/2022 14:17

An excellent interview and article by Hadley Freeman, though. Thanks for passing it as I probably wouldn't have read it otherwise. I'll have to find more by her!

bishophaha · 19/02/2022 14:31

I found the end of it really interesting actually - shame we can't be privy to the contents! This is pretty much all I want: Discuss it with honesty and a desire to actually find out what the other believes, where we agree, why we disagree. It has been shockingly hard to do this pretty much anywhere on the internet when the subject is 'gender'.

...Atwood surprises me with a plot twist. Just an hour or so later, she sends me several emails, some about the Galloway case, others elaborating on her thoughts about gender. This becomes an ongoing back and forth, in which she lays out her views, patiently and thoughtfully. Most of it is off the record, but I think she won’t mind me saying that, ultimately, we both want the same thing, which is truth and fairness.

The more we email, the more I realise we are not arguing about this the way I’m used to arguing about it, ie the social media way, which is just shouting at one another and not listening to the other’s point of view. We are genuinely curious to understand one another and send each other links we think the other will find interesting. After several days of this, I become self-conscious about how much of her time I am taking up, time she should be spending on her new book of short stories, and I apologise for being so stubbornly argumentative. She writes straight back: “Don’t worry, Hadley. Some people won’t really discuss things with me because they are intimidated. I agree with Orwell: the truth does matter.”

CoraggioCara · 19/02/2022 14:40

Fascinating!!!!

Hadley is fantastic.

CoraggioCara · 19/02/2022 14:42

I wonder...dare I hope. This might not be the last we hear of this.

KimikosNightmare · 19/02/2022 15:04

@bishophaha

I found the end of it really interesting actually - shame we can't be privy to the contents! This is pretty much all I want: Discuss it with honesty and a desire to actually find out what the other believes, where we agree, why we disagree. It has been shockingly hard to do this pretty much anywhere on the internet when the subject is 'gender'.

...Atwood surprises me with a plot twist. Just an hour or so later, she sends me several emails, some about the Galloway case, others elaborating on her thoughts about gender. This becomes an ongoing back and forth, in which she lays out her views, patiently and thoughtfully. Most of it is off the record, but I think she won’t mind me saying that, ultimately, we both want the same thing, which is truth and fairness.

The more we email, the more I realise we are not arguing about this the way I’m used to arguing about it, ie the social media way, which is just shouting at one another and not listening to the other’s point of view. We are genuinely curious to understand one another and send each other links we think the other will find interesting. After several days of this, I become self-conscious about how much of her time I am taking up, time she should be spending on her new book of short stories, and I apologise for being so stubbornly argumentative. She writes straight back: “Don’t worry, Hadley. Some people won’t really discuss things with me because they are intimidated. I agree with Orwell: the truth does matter.”

Does she think of herself as an august personage?

“Of course not! I’m Canadian, you’re not allowed to think that,” she laughs

Atwood has an ego the size of Canada. I don't necessarily object to that- whilst I personally don't like her books she unquestionably has a huge public presence and body of work. I don't mind people being egotistical if their body of work justifies it and they don't deny it.

The account of the exchange of e-mails comes across as A Very August Personage graciously condescening to spend time talking to a little person.

flyingbuttress43 · 19/02/2022 15:12

Her quote "“This is going to take a while to settle down, but XY and XX are not the only chromosomal combinations possible" really illustrates that there is/was a black hole in her brain when it comes to biology.

She's belatedly realised she messed up and has not been big enough to acknowledge it. It diminishes her for me.

NarcissistsEyebrows · 19/02/2022 15:15

I too found the interview intriguing and would love to see the email exchange.

I'm very disappointed that MA clearly knows what's what but refuses to acknowledge it publicly. I guess she doesn't want her whole franchise/ universe to be forever tainted with the transphobia tag like JKR's has been. A shame she puts her own pride ahead of what is right for the women of today and tomorrow, especially given her age

Abhannmor · 19/02/2022 16:07

Someone got me Oryx and Crake a few Christmases ago. I've never finished it. The writing style is sort of preachy and you feel you are being played somehow? Still she is hugely influential so I hope she stands up while there's still time.

RoyalCorgi · 19/02/2022 16:14

That's the fundamental difference between her and JK Rowling as I see it - it seems to me that Rowling has deep respect for and commitment to truth, decency and actual kindness that she cleaves to in defiance of her own ego or self-interest. That is why I have such admiration for her.

Absolutely. Rowling is one of the most successful authors in the world and she could easily play the grande dame going round being rude to minions. Instead she does the opposite, like when she took the time to engage in lengthy correspondence with the female fan who had anorexia and then went on to play Luna Lovegood in the HP films. And no one would have known about that - she'd have simply done it out of the kindness of her heart. All the Harry Potter actors talk about how kind she was to them and how she helped them when they were feeling nervous about eg being on the red carpet. And then there's stuff like writing the Ickabog, inviting children to provide illustrations, and donating the money to NHS charities. She is, genuinely, a good person, driven by the desire to do what's right. I don't think there are many like her. And then look at the reward she gets - being bullied by the spiteful twats at the New York Times.

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