There is no point in engaging

[Rainbowlaceshelp]

I've been wondering, having withdrawn long ago from doing so on any SM platform if there perhaps is some point in engaging to neutralise the idiotic arguments which take place on SM. I'm thinking perhaps of places like reddit where somewhere like UKpolitics is to some extent a more neutral place.

The reason I say this is the amount which goes completely unchallenged there.

The problem is that it gives the impression to those who have no idea what's going on that this is the right side of history and so they win their tacit support.

I'm unshakeable in my belief that if Joe public knew what was going on, this would soon be over.

So while engaging online will not change the mind of the person you're engaged with. There are people watching.

When I have had conversations with friends about this, particularly men - the overwhelming response is "but if there really was a threat/issue then wouldn't women be making more noise about this" - it doesn't matter if I point out the consequences of sticking your neck out on this matter - the impression is that it must be fine because there appears to be no opposition.

Add to that the number of people who still have no idea what a 'terf' supposedly is because they've never encountered this term. So many people simply have no idea.

Someone said once to talk/behave as if its not happened.
IE say what you would say as if there was no prohibition against naming reality, and if people question you then just carry on in that vein.
Answer questions and state your opinion as if you are just describing reality (which you are)

I do think there's a growing awakening about this OP. The Times, Mail and Telegraph are in full on TERF mode at the moment with trans activists in glorious batshit overreach overdrive, pushing out extremist anti women stuff on a daily basis. Even on here their focus is to deny there's a difference between men and women , identify single sex spaces as 'transphobic', celebrate porn and dismiss women discussing safeguarding as "middle class pearl clutchers".

There are increasing numbers of women (and now men) sticking their heads over the parapet so yes, the more we all feel able to comment safely, the better. The days of #nodebate are ended.

There are pockets of Reddit that are open to discussion - to a point.
As long as you don’t go down the route of being too feminist, or talk about women being at risk from men - the misogynists don’t like that, especially if you include facts - facts are kryptonite to men of Reddit, they stick to their own skewed MRA script.

That's true. And I have made a few comments expecting immediate deletion, which never happened.

However- one of the biggest problems is this idea that the opposition is coming from the right- these people have an instictive distrust of anything from the Telegraph/Mail/Times as these supposedly anti progressive. That's the main battle here I think. Its the tribal nature of this, people don't want to go against the grain of thier tribe. But they don't realise there is a leftist case against this. Its more than getting them to acknowledge reality but they must also know that the opposition are not 'the right' but coming from thier own side, otherwise its just inconceivable that they'll even go there in mind let alone deed.

That's true Outside Voice - there are pockets who completely get it, but it's not from a feminist perspective!

Most of the comments posted on the internet like Reddit or Twitter are made by teenaged boys. So while they'll initially reject what you say and double down, piss you off in the process, there is a bit of justification in continuing to engage when it suits you.
Actually on Twitter an incredibly large number of posts are made by bots.

How advanced are the human race we can create bots who can fool you into thinking they're a person, yet somehow we have no idea what men or women are!

For real activism and real change, engage with people in power.

I know this is harder for women, because we live in patriarchy, people with a penis will defend and side with other people with a penis on a regular basis and don't like to hear painful truths about the nature of their sex class. This is a given.

What I do is write to my MP, fill out surveys. Send money to crowdfunding campaigns, support visible protest that sort of thing.

I loved how so many women here contacted their local council to remind them that "sex" was a protected characteristic under the EA2010 after they'd been Stonewalled.

For basic explaining reality to fuckwits there's no harm commenting below the line or on social media, only if your mental health can deal with it.

I think sometimes (especially in the US media) when they do include "the other side" it is always someone coming from a Christian right wing perspective - like Matt Walsh who did a good job exposing the inconsistencies, but he asked the same questions/made the same arguments people like Derrick Jensen, Meghan Murphy etc etc have been making. If I put my conspiracy hat on I think its part of an attempt to portray all opposition to it as right wing. I think this will massively backfire in the long run since all it will do is shift people to the right. Which is what it is but its very frustrating when you then get people saying "where were the left wing feminists" etc etc. The answer is being ignored.

The UK is a least a little less polarised than the US (although that's not saying much)

@Ohnohedident

Someone said once to talk/behave as if its not happened. IE say what you would say as if there was no prohibition against naming reality, and if people question you then just carry on in that vein. Answer questions and state your opinion as if you are just describing reality (which you are)

That’s good advice if you can manage it. It’s so easy to get hung up on what you’re “not allowed to say” or to say something more neutral because you fear the backlash.

I do find using normal everyday language clears my mind a great deal. When I say “men who claim they are women” or “cross-dressing men” it is much easier to make my argument that they don’t belong in women’s spaces than if I try for politeness on their terms or if I’m trying to distinguish between transsexual and transgender.

Occasionally someone will enter the debate in a genuinely naive or unfettered way, and their honest reactions can be a real breath of fresh air. For example a while back, there was a Geordie lad who came under heavy attack after he posted humorous pictures of his reaction on discovering the person he was chatting to on a dating app was male, and not female as he had thought. Rather than being filled with fear and removing his a account or making a crawling apology, he obviously regarded the whole thing as a hilarious storm in a teapot, which to a large extent it is.

I understand there are many reasons why his reaction would differ from mine in the same situation, but it did also bring me to realise how much time I spent worrying about the reaction and cowtowing in advance because of what I thought would happen, when treating it with the ridicule it sometimes deserves would be a much healthier reaction on my side.

From experience, reacting as the Geordie lad did can actually protect you from the worst narcissists. I watch the exchanges between angry and fearful women on Twitter, and a few of the well-known litigious and bullying narcissists who prey on them. Those men look out for that reaction. It’s easy to get drawn in and become both fearful and fascinated, blocking them, but looking up what they’re saying. The answer is generally to block, then ignore. Those men enjoy the process and love having your attention. And I know that, because I’ve been through it.

Apologies, think I went off on a major tangent there!

That was a great tangent TheCurrywurstPrion

The way Facebook is designed makes it particularly difficult to raise any kind of dissenting opinion, because it’s under your own name and it’s intimidating to post something contrary if dozens of people are all saying the same thing.

Me and some of my friends have got into the most awful vicious Facebook fights over the trans issue. I’m talking about gently questioning whether it’s right to no-platform professor stock at a philosophy conference, when her talk was on fiction, and being shrieked at, called a TERF, threatened, and finally losing years long friendships because I wasn’t 100 percent on board with the witch burning. I have another friend who asked some mild questions about trans people in sport (seriously, the most milquetoast thing like “is it really fair to let people who have benefited from male puberty into female sports?”) and his very close friend replied that she wanted to “punch him” because he was a “fucking terf”. She then declared she couldn’t be friends anymore with a bigot! Later when he called her about this she was crying and regretted it, but apparently she just got carried away on a wave of righteousness (because of course everyone was cheering her on.)

This is just to say that while I endorse debate on other platforms I really think it’s counterproductive on Facebook.

It's a very interesting question. I tend to agree that if Joe/Jo Public was fully aware of what was going on, they'd be horrified. One of the difficulties I've found is that people don't fully understand the implications even when you explain it to them. So I have a friend who thinks the whole trans thing is mad, but I don't think she has twigged the full horror of allowing any man to self-ID as a woman, and the extent to which that would harm women. If you don't think through the consequences, then it just feels like another one of those political-correctness-gone-mad stories, like kids being made to sing Baa baa green sheep.

I try not to worry too much about the "right-wing" aspect of this because people in this country are largely right-of-centre - that's why the current government has a massive majority. But it is difficult with younger people who do skew left and are very tribal. So if you're anti-racist and anti-poverty, then you have to be pro-trans - it's part of the package.

@RoyalCorgi , yes I think the "right wing" in America tends to be more likely to be pro-life etc than in the UK and is quite different in other respects. The problem for me is that if there is a backlash in America and they elect another Trump figure, there will be a backlash to the backlash in Europe/the UK and people will dig in further in response.

And I like the approach of "don't be so silly"/amusement rather than fear.

I know many gps locally who don't have the time to breathe so don't go on SM or mn etc.

They think all this is bonkers and are learning through the mainstream press. And actually some medical publications.

One area being missed a lot though is younger teachers. Many who I know aren't politically minded, aren't in unions, don't read the papers but are being indoctrinated via charities or their teacher training courses.

Massive over generalisation there but that's what I'm seeing in teaching. I'm

I think those that do buy into the "TWAW" Koolaid shout very loud indeed, giving the impression they have far more support than they actually have. However, I recently got chucked off an Archers Facebook Group for gender wrong think so there clearly remains a lot for us to do.

When I have had conversations with friends, they agree with me but don’t really get it, think it’s a marginal issue. It is infuriating how apathetic most people are and how easily they eye roll and ignore what is happening.