Teachers urged to drop gender honorifics at NEU training session

[BraShopper]

This is on the front page of today’s Daily Telegraph, as seen on the BBC News page of newspaper headlines for Tuesday.

It reports that in a lecture session organised and funded by the National Education Union (NEU) attendees were told that pupils shouldn’t call their teachers Mr or Mrs (or Miss or Ms?) but address them as “teacher” ”in an attempt to eradicate gender in schools”.

The NEU is an amalgamation of the old NUT and the ATL, and describes itself on its website as the largest teaching union in the UK.

I don’t have a DT subscription so I can’t read the rest of the article.

At a school dh used to work female teachers HAD to be addressed as Madam. I'd have hated that.

One of my ds's attended an otherwise lovely all-boys school where the convention was to address female teachers as 'sir'. Baffling, but at least fair.

At various points various of my dc have also attended schools at all levels from primary to sixth form where teachers were addressed by first names - IME the level of respect for teachers in those school was at least as great as in schools that insisted on Sir and Miss.

Hate titles as it defines you as how you are related to a man. Even Ms is problematic to be (I think it's the non binary of the 70s and 80s). I am either Dr witch (title that I earned) or name witch (who I am)

@Whitestick

Everyone at my university was called Dr (with the odd professor), no first names. Has that changed now?

My dad was a lecturer for 40 years. No doctorate. His students just called him (and still do) by his first name.

Any teachers who had a doctorate at the dc school were called DR whether male or female, but most didn't.

At university not everyone has a doctorate.

Everyone at my university was called Dr (with the odd professor), no first names. Has that changed now?

Mostly yes - in face to face it's the first name but on official docs, my title is still used - so if they are making an administrative request my title is used.

You know this already happens in Northern Ireland right?

I don’t want to be referred to as my job title when a kid is talking to me.

I worked for a long time in a PRU and we used first names for all staff. I was very comfortable with that but I understand it’s not what most staff in schools want.
There’s definitely a conversation to be had around the structural inequality of calling men “sir” and women “miss” but if you’ve got a situation. Where you have a teacher, a TA and three one to ones in a classroom you need to have some way of differentiating between staff. I seem to spend enough of my time saying “me miss or another miss?” as it is.

Using generic terms like “your grown up” (I’m primary) is fine but there’s always going to be kids who you need to have conversations with where this would not be appropriate. A looked after child who rarely sees mum and is struggling isn’t going to benefit from a chat about a parent - they need to name that person.

Whitestick: re access to past articles.. I'm not sure. I have a print sub which automatically gives me access to online and with that I can access past articles. I don't know if it is possible to have an online sub only though.

Thank you

*I don’t want to be referred to as my job title when a kid is talking to me.

I worked for a long time in a PRU and we used first names for all staff*

I'd prefer a job title (I kind of like 'hey teach!') or my name ... but then I don't stand on ceremony and would like a different childhood where I was at Summerhill in the 70s.

I'm a teacher and hate being 'Miss'. I would much rather the children could call me by my first name. I'm primary, though - I don't know whether that would work at secondary. My children all know my name anyway and one of the cheekier ones even put it in my christmas card, which I found adorable! Alternative would be sensei - rolls of the tongue better than teacher, for some reason.

@drwitch

Hate titles as it defines you as how you are related to a man. Even Ms is problematic to be (I think it's the non binary of the 70s and 80s). I am either Dr witch (title that I earned) or name witch (who I am)

I disagree: 'Ms' is 'Ms none-of-your-business'. It's about not having to go about your daily business telling the world your relationship status, like men have always been able do with 'Mr', not about fleeing your femaleness because you think woman is defined as taking an inferior and submissive social role.

We seem to have lost the equivalents, so that we end up with the more widely used Sir/Miss power imbalanced titles.

The equivalent of Sir is Ma'am.

When it comes to denoting marital status, it is also an age/respect thing, as in Madame/Mademoiselle in France.

We had Mister/Mistress, which became Mrs
And Master/Miss. Master became Mr, the same as Mister, and so we largely lost it.

I wouldn’t mind being called Mistress Giggorata 😀.

@Giggorata

We seem to have lost the equivalents, so that we end up with the more widely used Sir/Miss power imbalanced titles.

The equivalent of Sir is Ma'am.

When it comes to denoting marital status, it is also an age/respect thing, as in Madame/Mademoiselle in France.

We had Mister/Mistress, which became Mrs
And Master/Miss. Master became Mr, the same as Mister, and so we largely lost it.

I wouldn’t mind being called Mistress Giggorata 😀.

I discovered last week that my local authority doesn’t have Ms as an option. So they can refer to me as Madam (which was).

@DragonMovie

It’d be a good start if we could eradicate Mrs as a concept. Not sure why marital status is something that is relevant in the classroom for anyone. And particularly why it’s important that women announce it and not men.

The secondary school my dc went to did this. All teachers are listed and addressed as Ms/Mr. Mind you, you still get the sir/Ms if kids are just calling out to them.

Primary school was much better. Teachers were listed as FirstName Last Name. Kids call out to them as Múinteoir, which means teacher or use first name only when addressing them directly, although the youngest kids will usually address them as Múinteoir FirstName, meaning Teacher FirstName.

@Whitestick

Everyone at my university was called Dr (with the odd professor), no first names. Has that changed now?

International students tend to use title or Ma'am, locals use first name, which I prefer. Some of the Internationals follow suit eventually. This is in Ireland.

I'm not a fan of the idea of all school adults being referred to as 'teacher' because it doesn't work in settings where multiple adults are in the same space. I teach in a PRU and have three TAs in my class. The children call them Sir but need to use Mr if they are trying to get the attention of someone specific. I detest being called Miss although I prefer Miss SE13 to the generic, low status 'Miss' and liken it to calling the children Boy or Girl. The male TAs in my class stopped using Miss and now call me Mrs when talking about me to the children after I checked with them that none of them had been knighted... it was a friendly conversation about why I felt Miss was lazy. I did say I didn't mind Ma'am as an alternative but that I'd really like them to use my name.

Previously, I've taught in schools where all adults are known by their first names. It's much more respectful than being referred to as Miss and feels appropriate given we use children's names when talking to them. The children I teach all know my first name - I'll answer to that, Sir, Miss/Mrs . If we have to rebrand to being called 'Teacher', it'll have to be with part of my name added on or the classroom will be even more hectic than it already is.

What happens to teaching assistants and dinner ladies though? They aren’t teachers so they need a different honorific. Otherwise it’s like calling a nurse doctor.

We're in Canada and all the adults, including the head, go by their first names. I was surprised at first (it wasn't like this when I was a child) but I actually love it now. It doesn't diminish their roles or lead to a lack of respect from the children.

I also call my doctor by his first name, which I prefer.

I am fine with surnames for teachers too, as long as the actual names are used. Sir/Miss is bloody awful, though it's an entirely British phenomenon. Never heard it elsewhere.

I don't think titles like this make any difference at all. If sexism is reflected on them, it doesn't come from the titles.

It also feeds into this sense that sex is something that only exists if we notice it outright.

FWIW, my kids teachers are Mrs, Ms, Miss, and Mr, and from the kids POV they mostly don't notice whether they denote anyone being married or not - they mostly don't remember whether any particular teachers is a Miss, Ms, or Mrs. and just call them all a vague in between version.

I do not think there is necessarily a problem with replacing Sir/Miss/Mrs but there should be a debate about what it should be replaced with not just what one section of the community wants. Teacher Bravest, Ms Bravest etc

As for replacing Mother etc. Most correspondence from schools I have seen refers to parents and carers.

As for replacing boys and girls with students/pupils, where gender matters, this is fine. Women have been fighting for gender neutrality for years. Where sex matters, absolutely not e.g. changing rooms for PE/swimming.

The honorifics form the headline, but I imagine the detail is much more worrying.

We've already got the Scouts asking 6-year-olds if they're transgender or not, and putting ideas in their heads.

If this happened when I was 6 I have no idea what sex I'd be now! Could've easily been taken in with this ideology.

As a teacher, I'd prefer children not to have my first name l. Yes they do tend to find out but they usually forget quicker than they would if they used it every day.
I don't want parents looking me up on Facebook etc so the Ms Mr convention adds a small obstacle and a formality that reminds that I'm a professional not a pal.

@flyingbuttress43

The Telegraph is going balls to the wall now over the trans issue. The Sunday Telegraph had a whole page with various articles this week and there are now articles pretty much every day covering the issue.

I know a lot of posters here don't like the Telegraph because they perceive it as right wing - shock horror. It is right of centre economically. But in the course of my work over the years I have had to read all the nationals each day and it is definitely the most female-friendly of the nationals - biggest coverage of women's sport, special campaigns on women in business etc.

This is what I think. Subscribed about a 18 months ago and was delighted to leave the propaganda laden BBC behind.

I don't think titles like this make any difference at all. If sexism is reflected on them, it doesn't come from the titles.
It also feeds into this sense that sex is something that only exists if we notice it outright.

This. It is just a manifestation of the sexism in our society. If you change the words, the sexism continues. It just attaches to the new names and becomes more insidious.

WELL

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10516265/Replacing-Sir-Miss-gender-neutral-terms-NOT-happening-schools-says-DfE.html

The Government has come to the rescue of the English language as it confirmed it banning traditional terms such as 'Sir' and 'Miss' in UK classrooms was out of order.

There was widespread outrage after an LGBT charity boss said teachers should get rid of gendered language during a webinar branded 'propaganda for trans activists'.

Dr Elly Barnes, head of the Educate and Celebrate charity, told an NEU webinar teachers could be addressed as 'Teacher' followed by their surname rather than 'Mr', 'Miss' or 'Mrs'.

However, a Department for Education (DfE) spokesperson said that would be 'inappropriate and completely unnecessary'.

They added: 'It should not be happening in our classrooms.'