Cressida Dick to step down as Met. Police Chief

[PandorasMailbox]

Just that really.

Now I know what the hastag #DickOut was about....

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-60340525

There are not a clear majority of met officers abusing women. There are many hard working and considerate men and women working in the Met. Unfortunately the nature of policing will attract some violent or misogynistic men, and the force needs to identify them and push them out of the job.
I think Cressida currently is being used to take pressure off Boris.
The police officers I know feel it’s a shame that a lesbian woman is being targeted for blame for the actions of some officers, and likely to be replaced by another middle aged white man.

@Offtobednow

There are not a clear majority of met officers abusing women. There are many hard working and considerate men and women working in the Met. Unfortunately the nature of policing will attract some violent or misogynistic men, and the force needs to identify them and push them out of the job. I think Cressida currently is being used to take pressure off Boris. The police officers I know feel it’s a shame that a lesbian woman is being targeted for blame for the actions of some officers, and likely to be replaced by another middle aged white man.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/17510823/met-police-rape-women-whatsapp/ (apologies for the Sun link; look at the whatsapps)

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/nicole-smallman-jamie-lewis-wembley-metropolitan-police-hornchurch-b1970599.html

www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/police-made-disgusting-comments-cambridge-22988078

I'm sorry to say it is a majority. Otherwise this kind of behaviour would go challenged. Unfortunately it is endemic. It is cultural and institutional. The evidence doesn't lie.

FFS. How can you dismiss this kind of behaviour as 'a few bad apples'?

Those who think she can't take responsibility for everything that goes on....Well, yes and no. Those responsible for appalling behaviour are the individuals who are, and will carry on, behaving like that, because they believe they can.
Dick is responsible for not weeding the wrongdoers out and holding them to account. She gets paid a lot to take that responsibility.

I’m not saying there aren’t some horrifically abusive men in the police, and in no way support them or their actions.
However it is not the majority. There will be some departments with a culture of misogyny etc (as is likely in many male dominated industries including law, finance, politics) but saying that all officers abuse women is not true.
The police department I’ve most experience of is child protection and safeguarding, and the officers there see the impact of male violence everyday, and they truly want to support women and children.

@Offtobednow

I’m not saying there aren’t some horrifically abusive men in the police, and in no way support them or their actions. However it is not the majority. There will be some departments with a culture of misogyny etc (as is likely in many male dominated industries including law, finance, politics) but saying that all officers abuse women is not true. The police department I’ve most experience of is child protection and safeguarding, and the officers there see the impact of male violence everyday, and they truly want to support women and children.

No-one has said that 'all officers abuse women' (your exact words). Please stop dealing in straw men.

I would summarise my position as 'most officers appear to be at least casual misogynists and far too many are actually abusive'. There is overwhelming evidence for this. If it were not a majority, then the events and conversations I have linked to above would be incapable of happening.

I am pleased you have had good experiences but very, very many people have not.

I would like to see the statistics on how many eg terrorist attacks were deflected, how many abusive husbands were jailed, how many knives were removed, how many motorists were prosecuted - instead the world today is guided by the attention grabbing negatives on anyone

'Attention grabbing' - What? You mean the abuse of women by police officers?

The deep rooted culture of misogyny - an 'attention grabbing negative'

You ask how many abusive husbands were jailed? Well certainly not the officer who physically assaulted his wife and bragged on whatsapp to another officer how much she loved him after 'giving her a slap' - That abusive husband wasn't jailed. Nor sacked.

Highlighting abuse and misogyny and bullying is not an attention grabbing negative. How you can dismiss it as such, is frankly disgusting.

This is true on one hand. But the main thing that has driven Dick out of office is her inability to stop what is a clear majority of met officers, abusing, insulting, belittling, and in some instances, raping and murdering women.

I presume this includes the 8,000 female police officers in the rapist stats.

@Spookytooth

This is true on one hand. But the main thing that has driven Dick out of office is her inability to stop what is a clear majority of met officers, abusing, insulting, belittling, and in some instances, raping and murdering women.

I presume this includes the 8,000 female police officers in the rapist stats.

Where on earth did you get that idea from?

However, if you look at the coppers who abused Konstanja Duff - and abused is certainly the right term - I believe a couple of them were women.

Cultural and institutional. However much you would prefer to close your eyes and believe otherwise.

So when you say its a clear majority - are you saying its 51% and more of officers in the Met?

@Felix125

So when you say its a clear majority - are you saying its 51% and more of officers in the Met?

Oh, it's you again.

Yes, a clear majority. I've evidenced this upthread. If most officers were not complicit, then it would not be possible for things like:

-the abuse of women at the Sarah Everard protest
-the abuse of Konstancja Duff
-the murder of Sarah Everard (bearing in mind he'd been let off for exposing himself, and colleagues recognised he was a sexual deviant and joked about it)
-the recent whatsapp threads that have come to light

to have happened. Because one of the 'majority' of decent coppers that exist only in your mind would have called it out.

But that never happens, does it? Why do you think that is?

Instead of coming back here (again, over and over) to deny women's experiences, why don't you toddle off and try to effect some sort of change from the inside?

Yes its me again - putting posts on a discussion forum to discuss things. As this is the best way to move anything forward by discussing ways to proceed in a better way or discuss possible changes.

And where have I denied women's experiences......?

There are about 50,000 police & police staff in the Met

So, you're saying that 25,000+ new about the abusive comments made in the Konstancja Duff case and the whatsapp threads?

25,000+ new about Couzens and what he was doing?

I don't think that any of this is right - but you can't justifiably say that its the majority that are involved.

And i do effect changes from the inside and have called out incidents that I have witnessed that are wrong and unprofessional - from the police and support agencies that we work with. Medical staff making inappropriate comments, teachers doing the same etc etc

^So, you're saying that 25,000+ new about the abusive comments made in the Konstancja Duff case and the whatsapp threads?

25,000+ new about Couzens and what he was doing?^

For god's sake. Of course I'm not saying that and you know it. Bog standard straw man bollocks.

The point, as anyone who is here in good faith would acknowledge, is that the Met is culturally misogynistic, such that the majority of PCs don't feel the need to call out this behaviour, and the minority that would are cowed by the majority into doing nothing.

But you know this, of course, because you see it every day.

As this is the best way to move anything forward by discussing ways to proceed in a better way or discuss possible changes.

How is coming on here over and over to deny the police are institutionally misogynistic 'moving anything forward'?

Every single thread you've contributed to has descended into you shouting women down. The same old paternalistic nonsense. Who is that helping?

You're saying its a clear majority - so by definition it must be 51%+

And no - I don't see it everyday. The force i work for is not how you are describing it to be - unless you can show different.

And what threads I have been 'shouting women down' on?

@thedancingbear

As this is the best way to move anything forward by discussing ways to proceed in a better way or discuss possible changes.

How is coming on here over and over to deny the police are institutionally misogynistic 'moving anything forward'?

Every single thread you've contributed to has descended into you shouting women down. The same old paternalistic nonsense. Who is that helping?

But labelling a whole organisation of 50,000 employees institutionally misogynistic is not necessarily helpful either. Recognising aspects of the Met has issues and talking about how to combat this will lead to more change and involvement than criticising a whole workforce. In terms of the WhatsApp messages these were small groups of officers in certain locations not a Met wide messaging service. They do not necessarily reflect the average police officer. In order to instigate change it’s important not to alienate a whole workforce with lazy headlines or stereotypes. Of course the senior leadership teams need to ensure that misogyny or tolerating abuse of women is unacceptable. There will be officers working today breaking bad news to families following traffic accidents, working with victims of human trafficking, identifying men accessing images of child abuse, being spat at or sworn at in their daily job, working alongside social services etc.

It’s also very convenient for Boris to have a high profile figure stepping down to take the pressure and media attention off him!

But labelling a whole organisation of 50,000 employees institutionally misogynistic is not necessarily helpful either.

That depends on whether it's accurate or not, doesn't it? I'm happy to call a spade a spade, what about you?

In terms of the WhatsApp messages these were small groups of officers in certain locations not a Met wide messaging service. They do not necessarily reflect the average police officer.

But these kinds of things cannot happen without a culture of misogyny. It was very clear that those officers knew they were on safe ground. As were the officers who made jokes around Wayne Couzens' sex offending. As were the officers who shared pictures of those poor women who were killed in victoria park. As were the officers who manhandled protesters at the Sarah Everard vigil. As were the officers who sexually abused Constancja Duff. They did these things because there was a culture that made it highly likely they would get away with it - that their colleagues would probably not rat them out because they either thought the same, or were too scared to behave otherwise.

Of course the senior leadership teams need to ensure that misogyny or tolerating abuse of women is unacceptable.

How's that working out for you then?

There will be officers working today breaking bad news to families following traffic accidents, working with victims of human trafficking, identifying men accessing images of child abuse, being spat at or sworn at in their daily job, working alongside social services etc.

But this is what they are paid to do. It is the bare minimum. No-one's suggesting it's an easy job but few are. You're presenting this as if it is going above and beyond. It doesn't for a moment excuse consistently and institutionally treating just about every vulnerable group like shit.

Yep, it's great - no doubt replaced with a white middle aged male who will be comfortable with 'locker room talk' and connect so much better with a load of politicians who are the bloody political image of him. I mean Boris is such an improvement on Theresa. Yay.

Or maybe they could go with whoever has the necessary skills, strategy and vision for the role rather than play identity politics with such an important post.

And I don't think either Cressida Dick or Sadiq Khan would have much interest in taking the heat off Boris.

So what changes would you like to see the new chief implement?

I'm a police officer.
I think CD had to go.

I don't hold her personally responsible. There are indications things were changing for the better under her watch and many of these vile officers joined and gained their foothold at a time when she had negligible influence over their careers. There's also the not insignificant fact that most chief officers rarely have a clue about what's really happening on the shop floor so to speak.

However, she was the figurehead of the Met. It's not so much about whether she's being scapegoated (in my view she is); it's about public confidence. So much damage has been done that the public have no faith in her ability to change it. Hell, even I have moments where I despair of the police and I am one! If I feel like that...

A new chief represents a new approach much more clearly in public consciousness. Public confidence is vital and more important than whether one top officer is being treated fairly. Policing is on a knife edge. What happens now will determine whether we can hang on to those principles of policing by consent or whether we become more ljke the forces of other countries, which would be awful. Police are people just like everyone else, but once trust and confidence goes conflict increases and an 'us and them' mentality takes over on both sides. That's dangerous both at micro level (people get hurt on both sides) and at macro level (social cohesion plummets). I desperately don't want that and I am so, so angry at Couzens, Carrick and their ilk for what they have done.

I don't recognise the appalling behaviors I read about among my colleagues. However, my career has been response based, where 70% of teams are made up of probationers - those new starters who habitually bring more inclusive mindsets than some of the veterans have displayed. I know that some of the more elite squads have issues (I have called put poor behaviour personally before anyone asks me, but I can't make a complaint about something I've only heard about fourth hand. That's on the officers who see it).

Sadly it will take 20 years or more to massively change policing as it starts with new recruits who become tomorrow's veterans. What they are taught now would (I believe) massively restore public faith if made public. However, there will still be predators (and incompetents) who slip through the net because quite frankly our recruitment processes are rubbish. IMO it's recruitment where we need to focus our efforts to achieve permanent change (in addition to weeding out those already in). We must get our house in order.

@Felix125

So what changes would you like to see the new chief implement?

I don't think there's much any new chief can do to address the callous and bigoted attitudes that reside within the individuals that make up the force.

It's always said that part of the answer to institutional racism is that forces need to mirror the communities they work within. I think the same approach needs to be taken with institutional misogyny.

I think the police should move, over a period of time, towards a 50:50 gender split. Given that men as a class are inherently misogynistic, I can't see that any formulation where men remain the majority can realistically shake its institutional bias.

This wouldn't be easy and it would take decades. I would anticipate a programme of positive discrimination: favouring them at recruitment; paying them more than male counterparts; and offering them increased flexibility on shift patters. I would remove some existing male officers from their posts.

You will no doubt complain that this would be unfair to the men in question. I don't care: it's not about their job security, it's about women being free from abuse from those who are meant to protect them. Men are the problem, not the solution, and they need to move over.

@Resilience

I'm a police officer. I think CD had to go.

I don't hold her personally responsible. There are indications things were changing for the better under her watch and many of these vile officers joined and gained their foothold at a time when she had negligible influence over their careers. There's also the not insignificant fact that most chief officers rarely have a clue about what's really happening on the shop floor so to speak.

However, she was the figurehead of the Met. It's not so much about whether she's being scapegoated (in my view she is); it's about public confidence. So much damage has been done that the public have no faith in her ability to change it. Hell, even I have moments where I despair of the police and I am one! If I feel like that...

A new chief represents a new approach much more clearly in public consciousness. Public confidence is vital and more important than whether one top officer is being treated fairly. Policing is on a knife edge. What happens now will determine whether we can hang on to those principles of policing by consent or whether we become more ljke the forces of other countries, which would be awful. Police are people just like everyone else, but once trust and confidence goes conflict increases and an 'us and them' mentality takes over on both sides. That's dangerous both at micro level (people get hurt on both sides) and at macro level (social cohesion plummets). I desperately don't want that and I am so, so angry at Couzens, Carrick and their ilk for what they have done.

I don't recognise the appalling behaviors I read about among my colleagues. However, my career has been response based, where 70% of teams are made up of probationers - those new starters who habitually bring more inclusive mindsets than some of the veterans have displayed. I know that some of the more elite squads have issues (I have called put poor behaviour personally before anyone asks me, but I can't make a complaint about something I've only heard about fourth hand. That's on the officers who see it).

Sadly it will take 20 years or more to massively change policing as it starts with new recruits who become tomorrow's veterans. What they are taught now would (I believe) massively restore public faith if made public. However, there will still be predators (and incompetents) who slip through the net because quite frankly our recruitment processes are rubbish. IMO it's recruitment where we need to focus our efforts to achieve permanent change (in addition to weeding out those already in). We must get our house in order.

How does the policing of the Sarah Everard vigil fit in with your 'a few bad apples' narrative? It was an institution-level for the Met to act in the way it did.

I think Cressida currently is being used to take pressure off Boris.
Offtobednow this would only make sense if Johnson had said 'no confidence' but it was Sadiq Khan who is Labour. I should think Khan's bad timing is causing much annoyance in Labour circles