More or Less Radio 4 Trans Women in Sport

[TheAbbotOfUnreason]

On Radio 4, just starting now, looking at stats and data on testosterone.

I haven't met anyone in real life who is neutral on this issue. Everyone thinks it is unfair and the solution isn't complex in the slightest.

Shame I missed this. I'll catch up on BBC sounds. The obsession with testosterone levels being the be all and end all of fairness in sport infuriates me. A woman is not a man with low testosterone!!

@Apollo441

I haven't met anyone in real life who is neutral on this issue. Everyone thinks it is unfair and the solution isn't complex in the slightest.

I suspect there are an awful lot of people still who are neutral because they haven't thought about it and none of it impacts them. They are vaguely aware, feel sorry for people who are 'in the wrong body', assume it wouldn't be allowed if it wasn't OK, trust decision makers etc.

Wow at last. Better late than never, and I mean that in a positive sense.

Very clear. Especially that they stated clearly that lia was the 400th fastest against men, and is now first against women, with a slight reduction in actual time.

It's interesting they didn't put anyone on from 'the other side'. But I think that's how the programme usually works, ie get an expert to explain the stats. It's a sign that the BBC is starting to treat this as a normal story that should be covered like any other, and is an extremely good sign.

Great that it followed the Johnson stories.

I know there is disagreement on this board about pronouns but I personally don't want the national broadcaster to be using unwanted pronouns about someone, where that named person has specifically rejected them, partly because that's my view anyway & irl (& I do acknowledge the arguments that this politeness has contributed to current policy madness), but also because it will sound cruel and arresting to most ppl given the social convention. It's also unrealistic given ofcom etc. It was very clear we were talking about male ppl swimming against women. Many ppl won't have heard about this story and will be surprised.

The death of nuance by Oliver burkman followed and that was a really good listen too.

@Apollo441

I haven't met anyone in real life who is neutral on this issue. Everyone thinks it is unfair and the solution isn't complex in the slightest.

Keeping men out of women's sport is based on material measurable reality and fairness, the rest is ideology.

I don't give a tiny shiny what the male supremacists demand, they are "wrong" by any and every measure.

@Apollo441

I haven't met anyone in real life who is neutral on this issue. Everyone thinks it is unfair and the solution isn't complex in the slightest.

I have met people who think poor Caister Semanya is unfairly treated because poor CS wasn’t “aware” of their DSD until it was shockingly revealed by cruel unthinking sports officials. No, honestly, they had no idea, none at all, complete shock, poor Caister.......

@ClaraTheCelebrityPachyderm

Shame I missed this. I'll catch up on BBC sounds. The obsession with testosterone levels being the be all and end all of fairness in sport infuriates me. A woman is not a man with low testosterone!!

More importantly a man who has gone through male puberty, has intact male genitals and despite hormone treatment for a couple of years still has a level of testosterone five times higher than most women is not a woman, no matter how long they grow their hair and manage (somehow) to squeeze into a teeny tiny racing swimsuit.

I always think it's obvious whether it's fair for transwomen to compete in women's sport. You just use your eyes....
So pleased to here this programme on the BBC today....

10:07TeenPlusCat
I suspect there are an awful lot of people still who are neutral because they haven't thought about it and none of it impacts them. They are vaguely aware, feel sorry for people who are 'in the wrong body', assume it wouldn't be allowed if it wasn't OK, trust decision makers etc.

YY.
My own brother thinks I'm a terrible bigot and that the "IOC know the science, you don't"
I could slap him.

It's interesting they didn't put anyone on from 'the other side'. But I think that's how the programme usually works, ie get an expert to explain the stats.

Absolutely. That's the beauty of More or Less. They don't 'take sides' they present accurate statistics.

It would be good if in a while they could look into the stats of transwomen in prison & sex offending in particular. I'd like to see some neutral analysis of this.

10:09 Manderleyagain
I personally don't want the national broadcaster to be using unwanted pronouns about someone, where that named person has specifically rejected them, partly because that's my view anyway & irl (& I do acknowledge the arguments that this politeness has contributed to current policy madness)

The national broadcaster has the option to not use any pronouns at all. Recently demonstrated in an article referring to "the pervert" rather than "she/her" which was preferred by the pervert with a penis. It can be done very easily.

Articles can very easily use "the sportsperson" or "person's name" or "the person with a penis" if the writer wants to.

Problem is, MSM is captured so counter-intuitive, top-down demanded, misleading pronouns are gone along with, because no one has a fucking backbone anymore.

Ross Tucker is awesome, it’s fabulous he’s being given a proper voice after all his efforts.

@AssignedBlobbyAtBirth

Ross Tucker gave a brilliant, clear explanation I was disappointed with the final statement 'some people believe transpeople should be able to compete in their chosen category' Or similar. I was expecting, naively I guess, some people believe sport should be fair for women

I think the words around this statement are important, so here they are -

"Several studies are now underway to more accurately quantify sporting advantages for transwomen athletes, and also to study the performance effect of mitigating measures like testosterone suppressants, but it's going to take years to get good data, and for some, data is not the point. They think trans athletes should be allowed to compete in whatever category they choose. One thing is clear - measuring testosterone levels doesn't tell the whole story."

"For some, data is not the point" - this whole show is about data. It's about how data can be selectively used to mislead you, whether that misleading is deliberate or through non-statisticians not understanding how to handle data. So stating that accurate data is not the decider - that really stands out. For the sort of person who listens to this show (like me, I love it!) - data is absolutely the point. There will have been a bit of reflex 'who are these idiots who dismiss data?' in quite a few listeners' minds. The presenter then tells who 'these idiots' (my words) are, with a slight emphasis on the word "They". 'These idiots' are people who think trans athletes should be allowed to compete in whatever category they choose - regardless of whether the data supports that as fair. Cue indignation at the "they".

And then she rounds off with "One thing is clear - measuring testosterone levels doesn't tell the whole story." When we all know that measuring testosterone is the only thing the sports bodies have been doing.

I'm actually pretty happy with the programme's closing statement.

This isn't complex at all, it's a joke.

The starting position should have been, 'should transwomen compete in womens sport'. All the 'research' should have been done prior to letting them in. This research should have started with body composition and development. That way, they we wouldn't even be in this frankly (un) complex situation because the evidence and data would have clearly shown how ridiculous this is.

Why are sports bodies so happy to accept individuals that are taking drugs to compete? Transwomen are taking T, they would fail a drug test. They should be competing in their own group not against members of the opposite sex.

An example of how tight the drug law are is here: a Norweigian woman was banned for 18 months in 2016 because she used ointment that contained anabolic steroid to treat her lips for sun burn. Yet we have men taking T and competing.

Transwomen are taking T, they would fail a drug test.

I think you mean transmen (females) taking T to compete against males, in which case they can apply for a TUE in order to legally compete.

@viques

That was excellent, Ross Tucker put it very well. Let’s face it, reducing testosterone after puberty is like locking the stable door when the horse has already won the Gold Cup!

Out of interest, since it was first run over obstacles in 1924, the Cheltenham Gold Cup has been won by a mare 4 times.

The Gold Cup at Royal Ascot (on the flat) has been won by a mare 16 times since its inception in 1807.

In horseracing the big races are technically "open" and there are usually separate equivalents for fillies/mares. In 1902 Sceptre won the 2000 Guineas (invariably only contested by colts) in record time, then the female equivalent 1000 Guineas a couple of days later. She then went on to place 4th in the Derby after a foot injury, winning the female equivalent (Oaks) two days later.

Vets don't tend to be confused about the sex of foals.

Probably having to conform to Ofcom rules on reporting pronouns?
What are those rules, exactly? And where are they found?
I can't see anything in their programme-related guidance www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/information-for-industry/guidance/programme-guidance

Apparently it's in Rule 2.3 of the Ofcom Broadcasting Code:

www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code/section-two-harm-offence

[quote hallouminatus]Probably having to conform to Ofcom rules on reporting pronouns?
What are those rules, exactly? And where are they found?
I can't see anything in their programme-related guidance www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/information-for-industry/guidance/programme-guidance[/quote]
You’re right, it was IPSO that I was thinking of.

But the same principles may well apply to BBC journalists on using the subjects pronouns.

Does anyone know the doping rules that would apply to female athletes? The equivalent of going through a male puberty - using testosterone at high levels for, say, seven years and then not using testosterone for one year - would they be allowed to compete?

Or would they have a lifetime ban for their extensive use of testosterone over such a long period of time?

@Beowulfa it's also worth pointing out that in races where fillies race against colts they get a weight allowance because it is accepted that the filly is at a disadvantage due to her sex.

Take the great mare Enable - one of the best mares to race in recent years. When she ran in, and won, the King George VI Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Ascot in 2020 he had a weight allowance of 3lbs from her male rivals despite that fact that she was older (she was 6 her two rivals were 4) and therefore more experienced.

The weight allowance in mixed age races is even greater at 3 years of age. Enable won the same race when she was 3, her weight allowance against the 3 year old colts in the race was still 3lbs but she received 14lbs from the 4 year olds and older - she carried 8st7lb whilst they carried 9st7lb.

It's almost as if there is an established and acknowledged difference between the sexes

Oops there's a "he" when I meant "she" in that post

Thank you CaveMum
I love threads like this. The breadth of knowledge on this board is amazing. More about horses please

It was a good piece overall, but it's a shame the editorial team didn't pick up on the female presenter talking about testosterone being measured in 'nanomolecules' per litre.

She also said 'ten times less' at one point, which is a phrase which irritates me more than it probably should given that so many people use it now.

@Goatsaregreat

Thank you CaveMum I love threads like this. The breadth of knowledge on this board is amazing. More about horses please

You're welcome Throw me a question and I'll see if I can answer it.

Alternatively I can just share cute pictures with you as it's foaling season (for racehorses, "normal" horses have their foals later into the spring) and my Twitter timeline is filled with a mixture of feminist rantings and gorgeous fluffy foal pics!