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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Unisex toilets, I just don’t want to see men piss

77 replies

LittleSnakes · 05/02/2022 18:36

Unisex toilets with the all genders sign on it. Door is closed. Walk in assuming it’s all cubicles and it’s urinals and then a cubicle once you walk past the urinals. I just don’t want to walk past men pissing. Doubt they want me there either. I go to find another toilet. Slowly open the door and it’s just cubicles. Phew. Except the sinks do look a bit like urinals so I wasn’t sure for a second. I have never ever had to worry about which toilet I’m in and if there’s gonna be men pissing while I walk past them. So I go out and read the signs again on the toilets. The one I’ve just been in says Stalls. The other says Urinals and Stalls. Didn’t notice that to start with because I’m not used to having to read a description of what’s in a toilet before I go in it. I’m fact, it’s the first time I’ve ever had to do that.

OP posts:
Datun · 06/02/2022 08:39

Men, gay or straight, are not going to like their loos taken over by women and kids.

'The wrong side of history' brigade just assume it will be women who are discomforted. The service humans. As usual. And that men will be dominating women's spaces, not the other way around.

They will not have considered hordes of harassed women taking prams and toddlers to the loo. Or pregnant women barely making the bog before throwing up. Or little kids asking 'what's that man doing mummy?' Or worse. My toddler had a lot of, er, interesting stuff to say about public loos...

LittleSnakes · 06/02/2022 08:44

I agree that surely most men don’t want this either.

OP posts:
Zeugma · 06/02/2022 09:03

It’s a good while ago now (pre-pandemic and then some) but I was very uncomfortable going into the loos at Liberty in London which had been the women's since time immemorial and finding they’d been made 'unisex' (can’t remember the exact designation now).

At least they were all floor-to-ceiling cubicles but communal hand-washing in the main space; it’s very small so only maybe 4 cubicles anyway, and there was a long queue of men and women and a horribly tense and awkward atmosphere. You could genuinely feel that people weren’t OK with it, it just felt so wrong.

FindingMeno · 06/02/2022 09:06

I hate unisex toilet blocks ( and public toilets in general)

WeeBisom · 06/02/2022 09:08

I despise unisex toilets. Last time I used one in a pub I was sitting down peeing when a drunk guy began hammering on the door. I exclaimed in fright and then he began to hit on me! He said I “sounded nice”. I was pretty scared. I immediately stood up and engaged in small talk with him until I was certain he had left the bathroom. What if he had tried to break in ? Or just waited for me to come out? It’s incredibly annoying to be propositioned when I’m just trying to pee. Oh, and by the end of the night the floor was absolutely caked in male urine because men would just relieve themselves on the floor right there and then. It’s vile.

highame · 06/02/2022 09:33

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

Lots of us completed this last year. If your read the intro, you will see that the government, Ministry for Housing Communities and Local Government were already aware of many concerns. Kemi Badenoch is one of the Ministers and Michael Gove is the Secretary of State. Badenoch is GC but I don't know the political opinion of Michael Gove on this one. I am now wondering whether to write and find out because the last one Robert Jenrick launched the consultation. I have c&p the intro below but also showing how conflicted everything is, this article in the Specie (yes I know, I read it so you don't have to) talks about what's happening in No. 10 and spins out to HR in general. I am desperate for EHRC to give firm guidance so that this madness can start to be controlled
www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-cabinet-office-s-transgender-toilet-muddle

Toilets, both in municipal and private sector locations, are an important facility for members of the public, in particular, women, those with children, older people and disabled people.

The government has taken a number of steps recently to increase provision of ‘Changing Places’ toilets for disabled people who cannot use standard accessible toilets. The government has also encouraged councils to open up public toilets following the COVID lockdown; and the government is increasing business rate relief for public toilets.

The government’s position is also of the view that there needs to be proper provision of gender-specific toilets for both men and women, with a clear steer in building standards guidance.

In recent years, there has been a trend towards the removal of well-established male-only/female-only spaces when premises are built or refurbished, and they have often been replaced with gender-neutral toilets. This places women at a significant disadvantage. While men can then use both cubicles and urinals, women can only use the former, and women also need safe spaces given their particular health and sanitary needs (for example, women who are menstruating, pregnant or at menopause, may need to use the toilet more often).

Women are also likely to feel less comfortable using mixed sex facilities, and require more space.

It is also desirable to avoid queues for toilets, and male toilets are typically able to allow for a quicker transition of customers. In addition to this, signage should be clear, and should not seek to avoid the use of gender-specific language unnecessarily as this causes public confusion.

We are therefore launching a technical review to address these points and will also to consider the ratio of female toilet spaces needed, versus the number for men, given the need for women to use cubicles. We want to ensure that everyone is fairly served, and this review will ensure different voices are heard.

There are a few alternative routes and mechanisms for conducting this review, and MHCLG will be considering the best route forward as a priority, working closely with relevant stakeholders to ensure that their views and technical knowledge of building regulations is considered.

This is entirely separate from the issue of gender-neutral Changing Places toilets for disabled people, which has been subject to a recent government consultation, where gender neutral provision is encouraged to facilitate carers/partners of a different sex providing assistance.

The government wants to ensure dignity and respect for all. The Equality Act provides that sex, age, disability and gender reassignment are protected characteristics. This does not mean that gender-specific toilets should be replaced with gender-neutral toilets. But there should be balanced consideration of how the needs of all those with protected characteristics should be considered, based on the mix of the population and customer demand.

As part of this review, the merits of any best practice guidance on the provision of a gender-neutral toilet, as part of a wider balanced mix of gender-specific male and female toilets – where space allows – will be considered, alongside the interaction with the necessary provision of access to disabled toilets.

These considerations also include provision for older people, and for parents with very young children who need changing facilities.

Slothtoes · 06/02/2022 09:33

All the girls in my DC’s primary class avoid using the toilets at school all day because they have to wipe their male classmates’ piss off the seats and floor. This is since the school made the new self contained gender neutral toilets. Which stink. What is that teaching girls? What is that teaching boys? It makes me absolutely rage.
The girls literally drink less, their mums say they get headaches and UTIs. Then at the end of the school day instead of playing, they are absolutely desperate to get straight home to use the toilet. Boys have zero of these concerns. It’s outrageous.

Whatwouldscullydo · 06/02/2022 09:46

Last time.i used a " gender neutral " toilet the men didn't lock the door.

Had I not specifically chosen the end cubicle ( four cubicles on the womens side amd three on the mens) for my dd shed have copped an eyeful as she left.

The toilets were also up 2 flights of stairs so if anything happened to anyone you'd never see or hear.

I won't go back to that restaurant.

What do the school say sloth they must have noticed the girls are suddenhnavke to concentrate in class, have dropped out of all the after school clubs and are regularly off ?

LittleSnakes · 06/02/2022 09:48

God wee that sounds awful.

OP posts:
IvyTwines · 06/02/2022 09:49

Can the parents get together and confront the school and local authority as a group?

LittleSnakes · 06/02/2022 09:49

Don’t know about my kid’s primary school loos. I’ll have to ask.

OP posts:
IvyTwines · 06/02/2022 09:52

It is teaching girls from the off that they are second class human beings, that their needs don't matter, not their safety, privacy and dignity, that they literally have to sit in the piss of males.

Whatwouldscullydo · 06/02/2022 09:55

It is teaching girls from the off that they are second class human beings, that their needs don't matter, not their safety, privacy and dignity, that they literally have to sit in the piss of males

With kids as young as 4 In primary school I'd really worry they could accidentally lock themselves in.

It can take years to learn how to manage conditions like epilepsy and asthma and allergies. If something happened they could be lying on the floor unseen all lunch break.

TurquoiseBaubles · 06/02/2022 09:56

Women won 't use the ones with urinals. Nor will anyone with children.

So men who are just having a piss will.

Everyone else will use the one with just cubicles - women, girls, children (with a parent of either sex), and also (I bet) men who want to have a shit.

The queues will be worse for women and even shorter for men.

knittingaddict · 06/02/2022 10:00

At least one retaurant that I know of has gone the other way.

They opened years ago and have always had one big room with cubicles for men down one side and ones for women on the other with basins down the middle. No urinals. We went in a few weeks ago and there is now a wall down the middle and two doors to enter.

It seems that they are ahead of the game here and it was a pleasant surprise.

QuinkWashable · 06/02/2022 11:02

No-one wants this. Men care less, but even they don't want this.

What we want is single sex, an accessible, and a family/unisex (mother of boys.. they get to about 8 and you have to send them in the mens, but hover outside and yell to see if they're OK if they take too long)

In a good place - eg. surprisingly, a macdonalds I went to, I was hovering and the (male) cleaner noticed, and noticed it was taking a while, so covered me while I went in to retrieve my 8 year old who'd gone in the (universally broken) cubicles had an accident because he couldn't find one that worked and needed rescuing (did you know an adult's cardigan can work as wraparound trousers for a little one? I didn't until I had to try it!).

And this is my problem. Decent men and women are fine and decent and fine with the separate facilities. This is just for the non-decent men and accommodating women, and the rest of us, the vast majority, are inconvenienced for it.

DdraigGoch · 06/02/2022 11:49

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

There's a pub near me that's done this. We didn't stay long - none of our group of women felt comfortable using the loo so we had our one drink then left
Go woke, go broke.
Goatsaregreat · 06/02/2022 11:54

@Slothtoes

All the girls in my DC’s primary class avoid using the toilets at school all day because they have to wipe their male classmates’ piss off the seats and floor. This is since the school made the new self contained gender neutral toilets. Which stink. What is that teaching girls? What is that teaching boys? It makes me absolutely rage. The girls literally drink less, their mums say they get headaches and UTIs. Then at the end of the school day instead of playing, they are absolutely desperate to get straight home to use the toilet. Boys have zero of these concerns. It’s outrageous.
The law on providing single sex toilets for children over the age of 8 is very clear Slothtoes

Safe Schools Alliance have a fact sheet about it that all parents concerned about their daughter's rights to private and safe toilets can use:

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/factsheets/#Single_Sex_Toilets_and_Changing_Facilities_factsheet

DdraigGoch · 06/02/2022 11:56

@Slothtoes

All the girls in my DC’s primary class avoid using the toilets at school all day because they have to wipe their male classmates’ piss off the seats and floor. This is since the school made the new self contained gender neutral toilets. Which stink. What is that teaching girls? What is that teaching boys? It makes me absolutely rage. The girls literally drink less, their mums say they get headaches and UTIs. Then at the end of the school day instead of playing, they are absolutely desperate to get straight home to use the toilet. Boys have zero of these concerns. It’s outrageous.
That's just asking for a sex discrimination lawsuit.
Slothtoes · 06/02/2022 11:58

Thank you for that fact sheet. I will share. And thanks everyone, didn’t mean to derail.

Whatwouldscullydo · 06/02/2022 11:59

Not a derail at all sloth

Its a good job you posted !

Slothtoes · 06/02/2022 12:06

Thank you, I appreciate it. Smile

Goatsaregreat · 06/02/2022 12:28

Glad you posted Slothtoes.
Sadly it's up to parents to stand up for girls at the moment until schools come to their senses. We shouldn't have to wait until the already appalling levels of sexual harassment of girls in schools escalates even further with what should be safe places becoming dangerous.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

transdimensional · 06/02/2022 12:30

There are two problems here. The main one is that urinals are in the unisex toilets. The smaller one, but still annoying, is that the signage uses the American term "stalls" in place of the British term "cubicles". ( www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/stall )

PatterPaws · 06/02/2022 12:30

Mixed sex toilets make me so angry. It's yet another issue for us females to deal with.

All in the name of progress. Hmm