Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GRA REFORM OR REPEAL?

88 replies

AnnieBarbour · 04/02/2022 21:12

I have a question, and I would love to know what you think.

I want those who experience gender dysphoria and those who identify as transgender to live lives free of harassment, stigma and prejudice. I have a transgender grandchild, so I know how difficult it can be to identify as trans. I think as a society we can do better, indeed we must do better. Some of that ‘doing better’ is about societal acceptance and education out of prejudice, while some of it is about legislation, and it’s on legislation where I’d like your input.

It has seemed to me for some time that some of the mess we are in now is down to mistakes that were made with the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) in 2004. Some of the impetus for that Act came from the need to protect the rights of transgender people in marriage – a need that no longer exists since we have had same sex marriage. Some of it came from a need to protect transgender people from harassment and discrimination in the workplace. Sadly, the good intentions behind the Act did not have entirely the best outcomes. It led to an understanding that it is possible to actually change sex, something we all know (although not everyone admits) is impossible. And that understanding has led to considerable conflict with other group who are have protected characteristics under the Equality Act.

So, I want to make a bold suggestion. I suggest we do reform the GRA, but not by just simplifying the process of gaining a Gender Recognition Certificate. I suggest we completely reform it, making it more fit for purpose. I suggest we may find we can repeal it because we don’t need it after all.

To do so, I suggest we ask:

  1. Where does recording someone’s sex actually matter? My suggestion is it is no longer necessary on passports, driving licences its; especially now we have iris recognition etc, but that it IS necessary for data collection.
  2. Are there any areas where the harassment, stigmatisation, and discrimination of transgender people is not already covered by existing legislation?
  3. Is the current trend of conflating sex with gender really helpful to transgender people?

Looking forward to hearing your views!

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 04/02/2022 21:17

I doubt this thread will last long so very quickly I'm dropping this in...

www.repealthegra.org/

OhHolyJesus · 04/02/2022 21:18

And this

gcritical.org/2020/10/05/the-grarg-manifesto/

OhHolyJesus · 04/02/2022 21:22

To answer your questions.

  1. Where does recording someone’s sex actually matter? My suggestion is it is no longer necessary on passports, driving licences its; especially now we have iris recognition etc, but that it IS necessary for data collection.

Everywhere - proof of ID, medical records, education, employment, safeguarding, the census, and yes data collection. It matters everywhere, it can't possibly be reduced to passports.

  1. Are there any areas where the harassment, stigmatisation, and discrimination of transgender people is not already covered by existing legislation?
    No.

  2. Is the current trend of conflating sex with gender really helpful to transgender people?

No

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 21:22

I doubt this thread will last long so very quickly I'm dropping this in...

It's a great site with some brilliant writing.

OhHolyJesus · 04/02/2022 21:23

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I doubt this thread will last long so very quickly I'm dropping this in...

It's a great site with some brilliant writing.

Brilliant blogs, high humour and hits the nail on the head. Every single time. Well worth a read.
VestofAbsurdity · 04/02/2022 21:35

1.Where does recording someone’s sex actually matter? My suggestion is it is no longer necessary on passports, driving licences its; especially now we have iris recognition etc, but that it IS necessary for data collection.

As OhHolyJesussays it matters everywhere and you are living in la-la land if you think it doesn't.

I think the GRA should be consigned to the bin, the only people who can live as a woman is someone who was born one, it's insulting to reduce women or men to stereotypes of looks and behaviour.

People should be able to dress as they wish, change their names, whatever and not face discrimination or prejudice for doing so and be accepted but the clear and distinct line is that their sex does not and never will change and all sex segregated spaces, services and facilities remain exactly that segregated on the basis of sex.

ThatsWhenTheCannibalismStarted · 04/02/2022 21:39

Repeal. Bad law, badly written. The purpose originally was to allow same sex marriage for a sub group of gay people, and for "privacy" of the GRC holder. That is, allow biological sex to be kept secret.

I find the former purpose quite upsetting, really. Why should same sex marriage be allowed only when one person purports to be the opposite sex? Why not all gay people and lesbians? Pure homophobia. Homophobia enshrined in law. It took 10 more years for other gay people gain the right to marry.

As for "privacy"... I can't help but laugh at the notion that it's possible to conceal biological sex in anything but the most vanishingly rare cases.

Yeah. Repeal. Repeal now.

Redlake · 04/02/2022 21:41

The GRA allows the issue of a new birth certificate. THAT was the original intention of the recognition campaign. The new birth certificate provides all that is needed. It leaves no question as to someones legal sex.
Some nasty bigoted people would like to take that away from a tiny minority who really depend on it's security.

OhHolyJesus · 04/02/2022 21:55

It leaves no question as to someones legal sex.

Legal sex Vs Birth sex.

Actual real biological sex, recorded at birth vs imagined, pretend, legally constructed, presented as fiction, under bad law 'sex'.

It's not 'sex' or 'legal sex' anyway, it's not even 'gender'...it's 'gender reassignment' and that's the point. It was a mess from the start, and now we know why.

It worked for a while, but the jig is up.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 21:59

It leaves no question as to someones legal sex

There are exemptions provided for in both the GRA and the Equality Act, when someone has a GRC. So no, the GRC holder doesn't have exactly the same legal position as a member of the sex they have the legal fiction as belonging to.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 22:00

The GRA allows the issue of a new birth certificate.

Yes, and some people feel that it should never have been possible to falsify a historical document in this way.

Redlake · 04/02/2022 22:03

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The GRA allows the issue of a new birth certificate.

Yes, and some people feel that it should never have been possible to falsify a historical document in this way.

Some people.
DomesticatedZombie · 04/02/2022 22:04

All we need is for the legal definition of gender to be super clear, and for everyone to understand that it is not sex and never will be.

Birth certs should reflect reality and not be changed. When sex matters, that's what we need to record. Gender doesn't really matter in most instances, it's 'pink or blue' and has no relevance when it comes to healthcare or legalities etc.

Strengthen and apply single sex exemptions. Then do whatever you want with Gender, wear kitten heels and a full beard, nobody really cares.

soapboxqueen · 04/02/2022 22:04

Years ago I would have said reform, now I think repeal.

It has fallen to the law of unintended consequences not to mention the fact that it was created looking at very different criteria.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2022 22:05

Yes, some people. They get to have their say and campaign for things they believe are right.

titchy · 04/02/2022 22:06

Why is a new birth certificate so important though? Passports and driving licences are de facto id docs with sex in them - birth certs aren't usually accepted as id in their own so having a new one serves no purpose.

titchy · 04/02/2022 22:07

And the original reason for issuing a new bc was so that same sex couples could get married - obviously and thankfully no longer needed.

OhHolyJesus · 04/02/2022 22:11

@titchy

And the original reason for issuing a new bc was so that same sex couples could get married - obviously and thankfully no longer needed.
And for adopting parents, for legal parental rights, with the original preserved for the child.

Recording reality and recognising legal rights all in one process. Not undermining reality and replacing it with falsehoods.

Clymene · 04/02/2022 22:11

A lot of very prominent transpeople don't have GRCs. I don't think it's had any significant impact on their lives.

Robin White, who frequents these boards, doesn't. It doesn't seem to have had any adverse effect.

In what sense does it impact someone's security @Redlake?

I think the Act should be repealed. It's a crappy, hastily drafted law that causes endless confusion in the way it interacts with the EA.

Clymene · 04/02/2022 22:14

There is a massive issue with issuing new birth certificates to adults in that they are an excellent method of concealing past identities and past crimes. We know that men who have been convinced of heinous crimes against women and children have been successful in applying for GRCs. We also know that the DBS relies on applicants' honesty when asked about previous names.

It's a system which a 5 year old could drive a coach and horses through.

OhHolyJesus · 04/02/2022 22:16

All we need is for the legal definition of gender to be super clear

You can't say some people haven't been trying. It can't be defined legally as it can't be any one thing. It's different things to different people...a feeling, presentation, an expression of some inner personality or thought, and it's not even fixed, it's fluid. It's personal and subjective.

I know it what it isn't, it isn't sex and most of the time it isn't real, in the way sex is real, unchanging, visible, tangible and defined in law.

I'd love to see a legal definition but so far no one can pin it down to a uniform, widely agreed, socially acceptable sentence.

VestofAbsurdity · 04/02/2022 22:18

What magical security blanket does this new Birth Certificate endow?

BattyOrange · 04/02/2022 22:30

I'm in the repeal camp - I don't think the GRA works well for anyone really. Everyone knows "legal sex" isn't actual sex and I think it's an unkindness to pretend that anyone believes it - including those people who have a GRC.

1.Where does recording someone’s sex actually matter? My suggestion is it is no longer necessary on passports, driving licences its; especially now we have iris recognition etc, but that it IS necessary for data collection.
Like PP, I think everywhere too. Remember that police appeal last year when they said they were looking for a woman on the lose with a knife? Only it wasn't a woman... Sex matters everywhere.

2.Are there any areas where the harassment, stigmatisation, and discrimination of transgender people is not already covered by existing legislation?
I can't think of any.

3.Is the current trend of conflating sex with gender really helpful to transgender people?
No - not helpful to anyone

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 04/02/2022 22:33

@Redlake

The GRA allows the issue of a new birth certificate. THAT was the original intention of the recognition campaign. The new birth certificate provides all that is needed. It leaves no question as to someones legal sex. Some nasty bigoted people would like to take that away from a tiny minority who really depend on it's security.
Some nasty bigoted people. Interesting phrasing and not, I would suggest, in the spirit.

But seeing as you introduced the phrase, let’s turn it round and see things from the perceptive of women who care about women’s sex-based rights instead.

Some nasty bigoted people would like to take away women’s rights to single sex spaces, sports and service, rights that we really need and depend on. They want to take them away despite knowing that we are the more vulnerable, more disadvantaged and more marginalised of the two sexes. (Or perhaps because of knowing that: who knows? Who can fathom the mind of a nasty, bigoted person?)

They want to deny the impact of being born female in a world calculated and designed to serve those born male. They want to make it impossible for those born female to take the steps they need specifically to redress the huge imbalance of power, wealth, economic security, personal safety between the sexes. They want to make it a crime, in social terms if not legal ones (though often in legal terms too) for women to even want to do this.

They want to turn the truth on its head in more ways than one, and make out that those of us defending ourselves from this onslaught on our rights are actually the aggressors the ones trying to take away other people’s rights, just as you intimated in your post, your post that some of us see as nasty and bigoted, Redlake.

Just as domestic abusers, for example, are wont to make out their victims are abusing them. It’s a very, very common dynamic, this type of gaslighting and reversal. So common it even has its own acronym: DARVO. Deny. Attack. Reverse Victim and Offender.

Because those with more power who use that power to control those with less power hate being called out on it.

Some people are nasty and bigoted indeed, they really are. And when those people have power and privilege by virtue of the sex they were born, so that governments listen to them and change laws around them and accord them even more power and privilege than that which they were born into, while taking rights and safety away from those who were born into disadvantage on the sex axis - then those nasty, bigoted, misogynistic people are very dangerous to women.

DomesticatedZombie · 04/02/2022 22:36

@OhHolyJesus

All we need is for the legal definition of gender to be super clear

You can't say some people haven't been trying. It can't be defined legally as it can't be any one thing. It's different things to different people...a feeling, presentation, an expression of some inner personality or thought, and it's not even fixed, it's fluid. It's personal and subjective.

I know it what it isn't, it isn't sex and most of the time it isn't real, in the way sex is real, unchanging, visible, tangible and defined in law.

I'd love to see a legal definition but so far no one can pin it down to a uniform, widely agreed, socially acceptable sentence.

If 'gender' is too hard to define we can define sex. Just so long as its clear the two terms have completely different meanings and aren't confused or conflated.