Julie Bindel on Triggernometry, 02.02.22. 7pm

[ScreamingMeMe]

I think a lot of it is drawing out the conversation Bernard.

But they are also males who've not experienced or read widely at depth about the things she's talking about.

I dunno how much of it is them missing the point and how much is them trying to draw out their guests to be fair. they don't seem stupid

People can be purblind because of their own experiences and unexamined assumptions. I was impressed at the way that they shifted post Posie. They have a way to go plus, although nobody is wholly accountable for their fans, I've seen several allusions to the open sewer of their live comments at times which reminds me of Heathers' recent piece.

jamesheathers.medium.com/week-1-your-fans-are-dicks-and-that-should-matter-to-you-f58260e5addf

I think they don't like feminism because, as was alluded to in the interview, they see it as some sort of personal criticism. Like when they were discussing prostitution at the end and Konstantin was saying that the message would hit home more with him if it was directed at 'men who pay for sex' rather than men as a whole. It's a bit NAMALT (and please recognise me as a good guy), which ignores the fact that it is about whole society attitudes and if the 'good guys' were vocally opposed and held their peers to account, maybe fewer men would feel entitled to women's bodies and labour.

He did rather hone in on the firefighter issue and it was a bit distracting, but because Julie had already said she wasn't that interested in those sorts of issues, she wasn't going to explain the wider sexism issue, which is that yes, in the main, firefighters are men and traditionally it was only men, but now there are women, someone really should have recognised that women are not just small men, but a completely different shape, and designed something safe for them. See also: police stab vests. That stuff does matter and the fact that it is overlooked is sexist. No, it's not rampant misogyny, but taken as a whole with all of the other similar 'man as default human' examples, it is sexist and does matter.

They bought into Julie's argument that the major issues are the massive, life or death ones like rape, femicide, domestic violence...etc, but I believe that sexism in a wider and general sense does have a role in those issues too. All of it is about seeing women as lesser. It does seem, though, that they would see the smaller issues as 'whinging' and irritating - which I think is partly to do with the fact that, if we take the smaller things seriously, they (the good guys) would need to look at some of their behaviour too and they don't really see why they should have to (being the good guys).

Just thinking aloud...

I can’t really get on board with the firefighter uniform is sexist argument. Men have traditionally been firefighters, now not do much and it takes a while for a woman to get senior enough to say hang on these uniforms aren’t great for us. It’s a numbers issue rather than sexism particularly imo. Strength is needed in firefighting too so it makes sense for men to be more attracted to it as a career.
My argument is more things like childcare, primary school teaching, nursing, caring roles etc traditional female roles are seen as lesser when they should be equal as just as difficult. That is the sexism imo.
You always get the why don’t women want to be bin men argument? But why don’t men want to be carers in elderly homes. I would argue a more difficult job physically and mentally than being a bin man. Worse hours too.

Yep. Thinking of the example the Russian chap gave, that the structure of his jaw is in some way different due to his ethnicity, and makes English dentists unable to properly provide pain relief.

I agree that’s not racist, English dentists just don’t treat a lot of Russians, it’s nothing personal.

But let’s think about the inability to diagnose heart attacks in women, or Autism. 51% of the Medical profession’s patients are women. The fact they are systematically failed is sexism. It is discrimination because of their sex, and it sure feels personal

I think some of their analogies were off, basically

And not providing adequate safety equipment for a dangerous job because of someone’s sex?

Hell yes that’s sexism

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

Yep. Thinking of the example the Russian chap gave, that the structure of his jaw is in some way different due to his ethnicity, and makes English dentists unable to properly provide pain relief.

I agree that’s not racist, English dentists just don’t treat a lot of Russians, it’s nothing personal.

But let’s think about the inability to diagnose heart attacks in women, or Autism. 51% of the Medical profession’s patients are women. The fact they are systematically failed is sexism. It is discrimination because of their sex, and it sure feels personal

I think some of their analogies were off, basically

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. For a long time doctors thought that girls were much less likely to be autistic. There used to be much less realization that some medical conditions that don't seem to be obviously related to the sex organs presented quite differently in men and women. To some extent in a lot of medicine there could be a very mechanistic view of the body that made it less able to see that there could be such profound differences.

And TBH I don't think feminism has stood outside of that as much as we might like to think. What's been the feminist line on non-sexual differences between men and women, or the male and female brain? It's all Cordelia Fine and of course they are not different. Well, if you believe that maybe you aren't going to think that boys and girls would have very different presentations of autism.

It often takes a long time to shift medical practice in offices and hospitals even once a better protocol is found.

But WHY do doctors tell women they aren’t having a heart attack because they don’t look like a man having a heart attack? Man as the default human innit? If that’s not sexist, what is?

And the issue with autism not being recognised in women is surely largely down to socialisation? It’s FAR less acceptable for women to display some of the stereotypical symptoms of autism (e.g. to struggle in social situations, to lack understanding of the feelings of others, to insist on routine). Autistic women and girls mask, putting their needs second to those of others, as all women and girls are taught to do

Because until quite recently most doctors thought that heart attacks looked like male heart attacks. Many people thought that heart attacks were less common among women, just as they thought autism was less common.

The idea that socialization is the main reason for differences in presentation of autism in girls is a stretch imo. But even if it were the case, it doesn't mean it's sexist that doctors did not realize that girls were presenting differently. There is still real controversy about whether autism as we know it is even one thing, if it's always caused the same way, etc.

As time goes on researchers begin to see medical problems holistically and understand them better, and that includes now a better understanding of how the same problem can manifest differently in men and women. There are a lot of strides being made in differentiating presentation of illness between different groups of people, even between different genetic profiles.

Because until quite recently most doctors thought that heart attacks looked like male heart attacks. Many people thought that heart attacks were less common among women, just as they thought autism was less common.

But why did they think that?

51% of the people who have heart attacks or are autistic are women

Oh look at my formatting failure!

It just feels like you’re saying

‘Well, the status quo is the status quo because it’s always been the status quo’