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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NI Civil Service removed 'mother' and 'woman' from maternity policy at Stonewall's behest

57 replies

SexNotGenderNI · 02/02/2022 13:53

Morning everyone - we had an FOI in to the NI Civil Service after they internally released maternity and paternity policies in which 'mother' didn't appear once, but 'father' appeared 10 times. They've responded, with Stonewall's 'recommendations' to remove 'mother' and 'woman' (remember when Nancy Kelley said on Woman's Hour they didn't want to do that?) - you can read it at www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/819001/response/1961120/

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highame · 02/02/2022 16:43

Thanks for that. It's happening everywhere, although when the internal maternity bill for civil servants was debated, parliament insisted the word woman was retained. There was also a backlash about single sex loos, and they have had to re-think this one. When it comes to practicalities, the Gender Ideologists tie themselves in knots or come up against resistance because they hadn't asked

SexNotGenderNI · 02/02/2022 17:05

@highame The Alliance Party, Sinn Fein and People Before Profit are all pushing for self ID to be extended to NI. Alliance took around £20k of funding from Ferring Ireland (puberty blocker manufacturers) and sister party LibDems still take Ferring money. People in the network we're in have been having calls with politicians and they're either too scared to speak up or think we're talking about far-fetched scenarios rather than actual changes. And of course they speak to our 'women's organisations' who all say woman now includes some men, so they've no idea of the strength of feeling. We encourage everyone in NI to contact their local politicians and ask them what a woman is. (And then tell the rest of us!)

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SexNotGenderNI · 02/02/2022 17:07

@hestyo that is a great point, and one we will flag, thank-you!

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Alpinechalet · 02/02/2022 19:34

I am putting on my hard hat and flack jacket as I know the responses I am likely to get. I want to be clear I am GC but I also believe in equality. Please read all of my post as I cover the use of mother towards the end.

When writing HR policies in relation to all 9 protected characteristics, including sex, gender neutral language such as employee, them and they actually promote equal treatment. For example pay policy, recruitment policy, promotion policy etc.

When writing family friendly HR policies such as Adoption, Maternity, Paternity, Parental and Shared parental leave, using the gender neutral term partner makes policies easier to read and again promotes equal treatment (sexual orientation). This is because a man and woman, two men or two women can get married, be Civil Partners or live together in a committed relationship. Note: these policies also need to be legally compliant and interact sensibly with each other.

Legally adoption has a primary adopter who can be male or female, and a secondary adopter who again can be male or female. Using gender neutral terms such as primary adopter, partner, employee, them and they makes the policy much more straight forward. E.g. “Primary adopters are entitled to 39 weeks statutory adoption pay their partners are entitled to 2 weeks paternity leave “ rather than “Primary adopters are entitled to 39 weeks statutory adoption pay their husband, wife, male or female civil partner or male or female partner are entitled to 2 weeks paternity leave.”

Now the difficult bit, these policies also need to reflect that whilst there is a “Father” who provided the sperm, they may not be in the picture in terms of HR policy. For example two lesbians and one (or both) have a baby, how would they read a policy that states “Fathers are entitled to attend 2 antenatal appointments.” As partners may not be the father I used “Partners are entitled to attend 2 antenatal appointments.”

Now for “Mothers”, I have previously used pregnant employee and surrogate and excluded the word mother. In my defence, at the time it appeared future legislation and case law would support this approach. Thankfully, there has now been case law and legislation reinforcing the very specific role of mothers. If I was drafting these HR policies now I would use Mother but also pregnant employee and partner as appropriate.

The driving force for writing gender neutral policies was actually recognising same sex relationships and underpinning equal treatment for women.

It is only in the last 5 years or so that the Transgender agenda has raised its misogynistic head and is trying to erase women and mothers.

FannyCann · 02/02/2022 21:57

Wonder how long before it becomes purely 'parental leave.'

I think there is a very real risk of this.
If surrogacy law changes so that the surrogate mother is not the mother because the commissioning parents acquire legal parenthood at birth where does that leave the newly delivered mother? Not a mother, not a legal parent, so presumably not a birthing parent either and not even a woman.

If more young women follow in the footsteps of The Travelling Surrogate, trading a baby for a year off work to go travelling I suspect companies will start getting a little less than enthusiastic, especially if the SM has done it for a fellow work employee meaning the company gets a double whammy if maternity/paternity leave.

I truly believe writing women out of the birth process is the first step towards removing their protected maternity rights which will be subsumed into parental rights leaving women with nothing protected for women.

Distant01 · 02/02/2022 22:49

[quote SexNotGenderNI]@highame The Alliance Party, Sinn Fein and People Before Profit are all pushing for self ID to be extended to NI. Alliance took around £20k of funding from Ferring Ireland (puberty blocker manufacturers) and sister party LibDems still take Ferring money. People in the network we're in have been having calls with politicians and they're either too scared to speak up or think we're talking about far-fetched scenarios rather than actual changes. And of course they speak to our 'women's organisations' who all say woman now includes some men, so they've no idea of the strength of feeling. We encourage everyone in NI to contact their local politicians and ask them what a woman is. (And then tell the rest of us!)[/quote]
I'm from NI. I'm happy to contact my MLAs to ask the definition of what a woman is. Anything else you'd like me to ask?
I recently read a post from an Alliance MLA complaining about how long people were having to wait on gender reassignment surgery and do you know about the SDLP MLA stating, boys have periods too.
The period poverty bill references 'people who require them'. No mention of women or girls.

Redshoeblueshoe · 02/02/2022 23:00

Thanks OP, I've just followed you on Twitter 🍷

SexNotGenderNI · 03/02/2022 12:41

@Distant01 Excellent! You might also ask them:

  1. Their view on men who 'identify as' women (or boys who 'identify as' girls) being able to access female toilets, changing rooms, prisons, sports, hospital wards, psychiatric wards, shortlists, or to offer intimate care to vulnerable women and girls
  1. If they think '50/50 women/men' balance in government etc is truly '50/50' if the 'women' are males who 'identify as' women
  1. If they support self ID, whereby ANY man can 'identify as' a woman, which was snuck in in the south in 2015 and which has led to 3 violent men (including one who tore the eyelids of a female care worker and expressed regret he hadn't been able to kill her, and one who's in for sexually abusing his young stepson) currently imprisoned in Limerick women's prison? (Especially given that women's prisons allow for infants to join the mother there)
  1. If they're aware of posts on social media by males who 'identify as' women sharing photos and stories of stealing used tampons and towels from sanitary bins for sexual thrills, and
  1. Whether they think pretending that males can get periods helps young people's understanding of their own biology or hinders it

Would love to hear the responses!

@redshoeblueshoe Thanks for the follow!

@Alpinechalet No flak from this direction! But would say that Adoption, Maternity, Paternity, Parental and Shared parental are all distinct terms, and maternity and paternity are sexed terms. You can see from our thread that 'mother' and 'woman' were specifically removed (and 'father' wasn't). This is deliberate, political, and well-funded (with much funding coming from the medical-industrial complex in America - did you know the world 'sex reassignment [sic] surgery' market globally is predicted to reach over $1.52billion, by 2026? And this includes horrific 'nullificaton'/'nullo' surgeries, and radical mastectomies for kids? (As young as 12, according to a 'trans surgeon' speaking on camera recently.) It's also a depersonalisation move by the transhumanist movement/lobby - openly written about by wealthy billionaire Martine Rothblatt. We're to 'get over' our emotional ties to our physical bodies and embrace the new technological future.

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TheWeeDonkey · 03/02/2022 13:10

This is really concerning. It's okay talking about equality but pregnancy is a unique experience and maternity provision is applied for that specific reason. I have a colleague who is pregnant at the moment and she's had a really tough pregnancy right from the start. She's had many doctors visits and had to have adjustments to her working conditions. The same doesn't apply for her partner.

How does this now policy affect women in a similar position?

Will it effectively remove maternity rights?

This feels like another MRA type move.

BrandyAB · 03/02/2022 13:28

@SexNotGenderNI
I agree maternity and paternity are sexed terms but legislatively females are allowed to take and claim paternity leave and statutory paternity pay.

With regard to the policies, I agree not removing father when removing mother is sloppy drafting to meet a political agenda and is not about equality.

I am GC and supportive of the work being done to ensure Women = adult human female, and retention of single sex spaces. AGP and INCELS are insidious and need to stop using the trans umbrella to access victims and change the law.

With regard to surgery, I have been appalled for decades at the legalised surgical mutilation of all humans be it circumcision (male and female), through to plastic surgery for clearly mentally unwell people. Whilst Trans is seen as the new revenue source, unethical surgery of any sort needs to be banned and classed as criminal.

SexNotGenderNI · 03/02/2022 13:40

Interesting re the term 'paternity' being used for females in that way, thanks for the note. That's an example of a sexed term being wrongly applied to a sex neutral situation.

Agree re banning and classing as criminal unethical surgeries. Court cases will happen soon (US legal firm calling for young people harmed by PBs to get in touch); not soon enough for too many, unfortunately.

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BrandyAB · 03/02/2022 13:48

Paternity leave was originally for fathers but with same sex relationships and adoption leave etc. in 2002 legislation widened eligibility to partners of either sex.

Signalbox · 03/02/2022 13:58

@Hestyo

Ffs. At least no one at Stonewall did Latin so maternity (from 'mater' meaning mother) was allowed to remain. Wonder how long before it becomes purely 'parental leave.'
Already started to happen...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10431337/Now-maternity-facing-ban-Britains-wokest-university-diversity-chiefs-ruling.html

NitroNine · 03/02/2022 15:12

You are awesome.

The whole push to erase “mother” is enraging, baffling & all kinds of dreadful; but the calm ignoring of additional cultural complexities around the construction & significance of the role of mother in Ireland (as in on the island of Ireland) & throughout the Irish diaspora (again purely in sense of people from the island of Ireland).

There’s a reason that the part of Dara Ó Briain‘s Craic Dealer I’ve screenshotted & attached (it starts at the timestamp 0:46:17 > 0:46:22 on the transcription I’ve linked to there) has such a different resonance on either side of the Irish Sea; & it’s not about relative population sizes. He’s playing on a stereotype, but there’s a reason it’s a stereotype. Heathen English don’t even understand about The Good Biscuits. One of my daddy’s cousin’s died shortly after my mummy did. Both deaths were very sudden & unexpected. After daddy’s cousin died, her widower employed a housekeeper & a nanny because he had no idea of how to do anything. Constant source of wonderment that my father didn’t do the same - wonderment & very nearly an actual falling out when it reached the point my granny thought HER mothering was being questioned because daddy was capable of minding us.

Obviously the literal definition of “mother” is the same & I don’t underestimate at all how important it is to individual women (whether it’s the joy of hearing it or navigating the grief of knowing you never will) but there is just that extra layer of wretchedness &… cruelty, even, here. And let’s not forget Stormont are STILL failing the women of NI on abortion - so they may be essentially forcing women to become mothers (the term in law, let’s not forget Hmm ) but if any of those women work for the Civil Service, not allowing them to use that term to describe themselves. While their male colleagues can freely use father, obviously.

NI Civil Service removed 'mother' and 'woman' from maternity policy at Stonewall's behest
NI Civil Service removed 'mother' and 'woman' from maternity policy at Stonewall's behest
NI Civil Service removed 'mother' and 'woman' from maternity policy at Stonewall's behest
PearPickingPorky · 03/02/2022 15:35

@Hestyo

It says "you may be entitled to paternity leave and pay if you are an expectant father." Words have been mangled so much I don't know what this means. Are they referring to pregnant trans men (in which case, why remove 'woman' from the other section) or simply the biological father (male)?
So if a husband and his wife have a baby through IVF using donor sperm, should the man not get any paternity leave?

Minefield, this.

BrandyAB · 03/02/2022 16:16

@PearPickingPorky You don’t have to be the biological parent to get paternity leave.

The criteria are taking time off to look after the child and being one of the following:
the father
the husband or partner of the mother (or adopter) - this includes same-sex partners
the child’s adopter
the intended parent (if you’re having a baby through a surrogacy arrangement)
There are extra conditions you need to meet to qualify for leave and pay.

LurkerDelurking · 03/02/2022 17:41

Thank you for this thread and your work in NI. I often feel like I am the only one who sees the problems here and it's a relief to hear about others fighting the good fight.

No idea who I am going to vote for. They've all signed up to give away sex based rights. My SF MP is useless and a paid up member of GI. Campaigning to let 16 yr olds legally change their gender!!

I've anonymously emailed my work place, the PSNI and the NI civil service to leave Stonewall. No replies.

I've emailed the Civil service about listing incorrect protected characteristics on their website and was told not to worry about it.

I am scared for my children and others.

Distant01 · 03/02/2022 20:29

I recently contacted my clergy regarding the Girl Guiding debacle that took place in England with the Transwoman/dominatrix leader and ask them about the guidelines here.
I got a reply tonight basically saying they would be trans inclusive to everyone. They apparently canvassed opinions from Girl guides and their parents who were in agreement.
I won't include the full text, but this sums it up.

There is no programme activity for any age group that talks directly to girls about sexuality. Through all of the guiding sections our core programme contains activities that focus on messages of inclusion and acceptance, welcoming everyone no matter what differences you have. From Brownie age 7 upwards we have some activities that look at gender stereotypes and how to break free from them. All programme content we create comes from girls and all leaders are trained in how to deliver this. Girls are consulted on the topic and test the activities as they are being created. As with all youth groups, a typical session is not just defined by the programme content, but the girls themselves and what they bring to the unit.
We are proud to be an inclusive organisation. We have an Equality & Diversity policy which includes trans-inclusion as one aspect of our commitment to ensure that all our members are supported.

SexNotGenderNI · 04/02/2022 12:12

@NitroNine Thanks for the laugh! O'Briain's been such a disappointment on Gender Woo tho. :(

@LurkerDelurking and @Distant01 We're part of a network being run by someone speaking publicly about this in NI; not sure what the rules are around promotion here so will just say if you find us on social media, we can tell you more. There are a load of us all in contact with each other (most anonymously). And if you don't want to be part of a group you can make contact with just the organiser to send stuff through and be kept up to date.

Flip knows what's going to happen now with Stormont at risk of collapse, but if they do bring the election forward, we need to wake everyone up very, very quickly...

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Cocolapew · 04/02/2022 12:32

Thanks for this, I'm in NI and follow you on twitter and Facebook.
I usually spoil my vote but Alliance would be the only party I would support until now, it's like nobody cares about women and girls as long as they appeal to the vocal minority.

SexNotGenderNI · 04/02/2022 17:08

@cocolapew There are others in the network we're part of in the same boat as you. The betrayal by our women leaders is just awful. (It is hard to resist tagging them in on all of our posts, but we know they get worse abuse than the men. Such a depressing state of affairs.

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SexNotGenderNI · 04/02/2022 17:10

@Cocolapew PS if you want to be involved, we can put you in touch with the woman running the network we're in, who can catch you up on everything. Every week there are more people wanting to get involved, people are waking up.

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Cocolapew · 04/02/2022 17:36

Thank you, I will be in touch in the coming months, I dealing with a bereavement atm and my heads fried Smile

FedUpWithBriiiiick · 04/02/2022 18:05

Sorry for your loss @Cocolapew

Cocolapew · 04/02/2022 18:23

Thank you Smile