Misogny v sexism

[Flammkuchen]

I've noticed that the media rarely refer to 'sexism' these days, always 'misogny'. Ten years ago, I'm sure derogatory comments about women would have been referred to as 'sexist' rather than 'misogynistic'.

And now TRAs want 'misogny' to be a hate crime, and for misogny to be based on 'gender identity.'

Should we start using the word 'sexist' again to make it clear that these behaviours and discrimination are sex-based?

I think misogyny is clearer terminology
because it refers to discrimination against women specifically, whereas sexism can technically be aimed at anyone. Men can experience sexism, if they are discriminated against because of their sex. Misogyny recognises there is a particular phenomenon and a particular impact on women that men don't experience.

Got to admit, I've never yet seen anyone successfully explain why misogyny shouldn't be a hate crime.

And now TRAs want 'misogny' to be a hate crime, and for misogny to be based on 'gender identity.'

Only so they can have another tool to bully women who don't support gender ideology.

@FOJN

And now TRAs want 'misogny' to be a hate crime, and for misogny to be based on 'gender identity.'

Only so they can have another tool to bully women who don't support gender ideology.

How would this be used to bully people? I don't understand. If you want to bully women why would you support a bill which specifically makes bullying women into a hate crime?

Frankly, I don't think there should be any 'hate crimes' just 'crimes'.

All people should be equal under the law.

@SevenWaystoLeave

I think misogyny is clearer terminology because it refers to discrimination against women specifically, whereas sexism can technically be aimed at anyone. Men can experience sexism, if they are discriminated against because of their sex. Misogyny recognises there is a particular phenomenon and a particular impact on women that men don't experience.

Got to admit, I've never yet seen anyone successfully explain why misogyny shouldn't be a hate crime.

This. Misogyny is the more useful term. Sexism means men try to claim they're the main victims of it.

Because if 'misogny' is based on gender identity, then anyone who points out that a TW should not be naked in a female changing-room, then there is a risk that they could be accused of a hate crime.

In the old world, the TW would be arrested for indecent exposure, but now it is those who complain who could be charged.

How would this be used to bully people?

Refusal to agree TW are W will probably be a misogynist hate crime. I can't see how a group which issuesmrape and death threats to any woman who doesn't toe the line having women's interests at heart.

This. Misogyny is the more useful term. Sexism means men try to claim they're the main victims of it.

But they mean different things. Misogyny isn't simply discrimination, it's dislike/hatred.

Using it to mean something else is no better than calling everything trans people don't like "transphobia".

Sure, there's plenty of misogyny to go around, as evidenced in this fight, but there is also just sexism.

And that's easier to pin down because it's an act. Misogyny is a prescribed motivation.

@FOJN

How would this be used to bully people?

Refusal to agree TW are W will probably be a misogynist hate crime. I can't see how a group which issuesmrape and death threats to any woman who doesn't toe the line having women's interests at heart.

But trans people are already protected by hate crime legislation. This wouldn't give them any additional legal protection for being trans than they already have. It just means misogyny towards a trans woman would still count as misogyny under law. Which I think is reasonable - I would not want trans women to be victims of misogyny any more than non-trans women, nor would I want a misogynist to get away with it just because his victim was trans.

Trans women can't be victims of misogny as they are male.

Discrimination or harassment of TW because they are trans is wrong, but considering TW as male may seem heresy, but it is also reality.

A TW should not be treated worse than any other male.

I'm starting to think that George Orwell got everything right except the date.

Both sexism and misogyny are useful terms, when applied appropriately. I agree that 'hate crimes' aren't necessarily a helpful concept, but if anything is added it should be sexism, congruent with the protected characteristic of sex. It may not happen often, but there are some genuine cases of sexism against men and they aren't acceptable. (Eg in employment, if a man is discriminated against for being as engaged a parent as a woman in that company is allowed to be).

Misogyny is also necessary as a separate thing because it's so bloody common - from the banal to the serious. And of course it should only be applied to females. The clue is in the name, -gyny. It's about sex. The discrimination and prejudice faced by trans people is covered by transphobia (and in some cases, homophobia).

misogyny towards a trans woman would still count as misogyny under law.

The clue is in the word... Misogyne (gynae)
It's misandry for male people (andro).

Transwomen can be victims of misandry. The most common form of transphobia against transwomen is from people against the idea that men can be feminine. That's misandry.

^kay shit spelling and formatting above but you get the idea

- I would not want trans women to be victims of misogyny any more than non-trans women, nor would I want a misogynist to get away with it just because his victim was trans.
What on earth is a non trans woman? Do you mean a woman who does not identify as male? A woman is an adult human female and therefore if you use the prefix trans as an adjective, you must be describing a female person who identifies as a man. The words you are looking for are women and transwomen( AKA a male human who identifies as a woman)

If you are male , as transwomen are, you cannot be a victim of misogyny as you are the wrong sex.

To start with I don't think the two words are totally equivalent. You can be sexist, or even sexist towards women, without being a misogynist.

TBH my own feeling has been that the change is a kind of hyperbole, where people want to give the sense that any kind of disparate treatment or sexism is hate based, to make it seem worse. To me that follows the general trend to tak about spreading hate, hate crimes and incidents, etc.

But it might also tend to follow the move away from using "sex" to mean the sexes rather than the act.

SantaClawsServiette - I agree with your points. I avoid using misogyny if I can as to me it is a term that involves actual hatred of women, and not just unfair or disparate treatment. Sexism is actually a better word for many of the issues we see in how women are treated, and I tend to reserve misogyny for things that really warrant it.

But transwomen don't experience misogyny so what does gender have to do with it?

People not believing 6' 2" Dave from Hull with a boob job is in any way the same as a woman is not misogyny it's just reality.

But they cant have misogyny the word means women hater, miso = hate and gyne means woman from the same stable as gynecology or do they want to try and steal that too?

How would this be used to bully people? I don't understand. If you want to bully women why would you support a bill which specifically makes bullying women into a hate crime?

its another step to appropriation of women to muscle us out of our own spaces and boundaries.

if they manage to muddy the waters of that term it renders it impossible to hold any male to account for being one or a incel as they can just claim they are trans and thus are a women rendering the crime moot, the same goes for TRAs it gives them freedom to be as misogynistic as they like without any repercussion because you cant be a woman hater if you are a woman.

in a similar way to how all black people can use the word n*er with impunity but a white person cant.

They can't even convict rape, murder and domestic violence crimes. 'Sex games' choking acquitted, rape practically legal, and the murder rates of women by men who knew them. What fucking chance is there to have convictions for misogyny?

It's a pile of old crap, designed to bring in gender based legislation, which will benefit nobody but males.

Misogyny is a wanted word as it refers specifically to females, and therefore reinforces the whole TWAW line. And hence the increasing colonisation of politics to steer misogyny to mostly mean TW and be used against females that saying no to TW is misogyny.

Increasingly I find 'male supremacism' an interesting dictionary term, and it's hard to deny that it is, in factual definition, becoming a very large part of this political movement.

Misogyny is a wanted word as it refers specifically to females, and therefore reinforces the whole TWAW line.

YY.