Male violence is the problem but we should still keep sex-based protections

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

A conversation with a friend last night re: trans issues. She said that the problem is male violence and that trying to manage the issue by providing female-only spaces is stopping people focusing on that as the core problem. Hence she's not worried that we now have no protected female spaces.

I can see where she's coming from but using this as an argument to let transwomen into female spaces seems a bit shit to me tbh. It's like saying that crime is the problem so lets focus on doing something about the causes of crime rather than having a police force. Yes we need to do something about male violence but whilst we are doing so we also need to listen to the victims of that regarding the supports they need.

Can you help me think through why this is not an OK stance to take?

We should be able to go to prison or Gp or hospital or a loo without fear.

As it can be male violence or abuse that sends us there, not likely any time soon.

I don't think she was arguing that getting rid of sex-based protections eradicates male violence just, I think, that focusing on the sex-based protections means we are not focusing on the core issue of male violence.

Focusing on sex based protections minimises the risk of being a victim of male violence.

Focusing on sex based protections brings the issue of male violence front and centre, one of the reasons they are needed is because of male violence, the others are that females are, or should be, entitled to the same levels of dignity, privacy and comfort as males are. Females are not some inferior set of sub humans who do not deserve this consideration.

Males have had their hands on the levers of power and the finance to enable that power for millenia and yet they have neither bothered to address male violence or found a solution for it, why would that be? Apathy, indifference, fear?

Males need to sort out male violence, not their, in the main, victims of it and until they do sex based protections are vital to protect females.

Am I being thick, here? I don't understand what she's saying. Yes, male violence is the problem. Single sex spaces are a way to mitigate the risk of that violence. How is fighting to maintain the mitigation mechanism bad?

@ThatsWhenTheCannibalismStarted

Am I being thick, here? I don't understand what she's saying. Yes, male violence is the problem. Single sex spaces are a way to mitigate the risk of that violence. How is fighting to maintain the mitigation mechanism bad?

I think because men will still be violent in other places. I think she has some idea that we can do more to reduce the actual chance of men wanting to be violent - and to be honest I agree. I just don't think we do that instead of providing female-only spaces. She seemed to think that if we invest our resources in protecting female-only spaces we are doing less than we could to address the roots of the reasons why men want to be violent.

@ThatsWhenTheCannibalismStarted

Am I being thick, here? I don't understand what she's saying. Yes, male violence is the problem. Single sex spaces are a way to mitigate the risk of that violence. How is fighting to maintain the mitigation mechanism bad?

No, it's not you, it's her. The OPs friend is being idiotic.

She seemed to think that if we invest our resources in protecting female-only spaces we are doing less than we could to address the roots of the reasons why men want to be violent.

But we don't need to 'invest our resources' significantly on the former - just retain (and reclaim!) what we had already invested in. And does she actually have any concrete, feasible, suggestions for how to tackle the latter? Do challenge her on this - because if she does then I'm sure we'd all like to support those efforts in addition to retaining womens spaces and services for as long as they're still necessary.

I think she has some idea that we can do more to reduce the actual chance of men wanting to be violent - and to be honest I agree.

How?

As I said earlier there has been ample opportunity for millenia for men who have the power to sort this out and nothing has changed, do you seriously think those men care what women have to say about this?

What does your Fri think "we" should be doing to eradicate male violence and why does she think the defense of single sex spaces can not happen at the same time?

Your friend obviously

But OP we never work on eradicating male violence. It's always women, children, the more vulnerable having to mend our ways : stay home, don't run on the tow path, don't have one too many. The core issue is never addressed.

I'm really tired of this narrative that 'we' should fix male violence. I think the only way it will ever get sorted will be when and if enough men a) acknowledge its existence and b) summon up the willpower to tackle it.

I will add that, given that men are victims themselves (tell me about it - I have a young adult son) then I'm not completely out of hope. I just can't see it happening in my lifetime, and absolutely no way do we give up single sex spaces in the meantime.

I thought I was missing something!

Not sure what women can do to stop men stalking, harassing, following, abusing, spiking, raping, assaulting and murdering us, though. Women, try harder!

@ThatsWhenTheCannibalismStarted

I thought I was missing something!

Not sure what women can do to stop men stalking, harassing, following, abusing, spiking, raping, assaulting and murdering us, though. Women, try harder!

Well, exactly.

Perhaps we should sit them down offer them a nice cup of tea and ask them to tell us all their troubles ffs.

To be fair it's not about false sense of security, it's about her belief that we are losing focus on the core issue which is 'why are men so violent?' and as we're busy mopping up the outcomes of that violence we are not actually working on preventing it.

But that's just plain nonsense. A bit like saying the world should have insisted on continuing to investigate where and how Covid started, made sure every last wet market was shut down, launched investigations into how it had initially spread etc etc... and only once that was done, started taking lockdown measures and trying to create a vaccine!

It is possible to focus on more than one thing, and more than one aspect of a problem, at once! How does continuing to implement rules on single-sex spaces in any way prevent initiatives to investigate and deal with male violence?

“Women! Give up the thing that reduces the opportunities for men to do violence to you! Why? That protection is obviously distracting you from stopping men from violent! THE ABSOLUTE SELFISHNESS!”

Obviously ending male violence is completely achievable without either some kind of sinister sci-fi mind control device or simply eradicating the male of the species. Pity about all the non-violent ones if use the latter approach, but there will always be collateral damage, right?

Women have a superabundance of their own concerns - including preserving single-sex spaces, in fact - to deal with; we don’t have time to try to fix men’s issues. Somehow, mysteriously, women consistently manage grassroots organising & self-funding of projects to improve the lives of both women & children (who we all know are the sole responsibility of the one sex, of course - natural way of things, as with women traditionally having so many vocations running parallel to men’s careers).

The endless centring & privileging of men is exhausting. And embarrassing. Obviously male violence is an incredibly serious issue that needs addressing. But VAWG is completely different from, for example, alcohol-fuelled violence between [groups of] men while socialising (one-punch deaths are particularly tragic example); rising [youth] knife crime; gang violence (though that can include VAWG); & the “traditional” racist & homophobic attacks that are claimed to have been fights with the victim as the aggressor*.

• Amazing how Mr Combat 18’s chums were always JUST around the corner & able to dash to his aid & yes they WERE a very unlucky group that all those racist slurs with no history of violence just kept assaulting them out of nowhere; & how amazing they all took so much subduing, particularly the frail elderly ones.

@VestofAbsurdity

I think she has some idea that we can do more to reduce the actual chance of men wanting to be violent - and to be honest I agree.

How?

As I said earlier there has been ample opportunity for millenia for men who have the power to sort this out and nothing has changed, do you seriously think those men care what women have to say about this?

I think male aggression fits well in a pushy capitalist individualistic society and that genuine care for others is hard within that way of seeing the world. Our schools tend to be very competitive and often judgmental places and this reinforces the behaviors which set the scene for aggression and violence. To be clear, I see men (whether or not they consider themselves to be transwomen) trying to get into female spaces AS male aggression and I think changing the world into one I would prefer is a very long-term agenda and so should in NO WAY be taken as evidence that we should remove female protections of any sort. I think she was trying to make it almost an either/ or which I really did not like.

@ThatsWhenTheCannibalismStarted

I thought I was missing something!

Not sure what women can do to stop men stalking, harassing, following, abusing, spiking, raping, assaulting and murdering us, though. Women, try harder!

Yes, it's interesting to think about exactly who she thought should be working on the problem of male violence. If she brings it up again I will ask her.

I think she has some idea that we can do more to reduce the actual chance of men wanting to be violent - and to be honest I agree.

I'm not sure how. It seems that the more the spotlight is shone on toxic masculinity, male violence and misogyny, the more men seem to get angry about how they 'can't say/do anything these days' and either retreat into dark incel-infested corners of the internet or just openly continue to be misogynists. Feeling criticised for their behaviour makes them angry, so what's the alternative? Just #bekind to them?

Our schools tend to be very competitive and often judgmental places and this reinforces the behaviors which set the scene for aggression and violence.

That's not what I see in the multiple schools I work in. I see teachers and pastoral teams bending over backwards to foster kindness, cooperation and inclusivity. Insisting that every child matters, that all have something to contribute, no matter their ability or background. Dealing sensitively and carefully with racism, sexism etc. But the bad behaviour and prejudiced attitudes among teenagers don't go away. It's not the schools, it's the parents.

Men have had 1000s of year to address their violence or evolve out of it and they haven't come close. Protecting ourselves from them is sadly one of the few things we can do. Taking away female protections just provides more opportunity and addresses nothing.

Its not just male violence tho. The way women are oppressed, or moulded if you prefer, by a sexist society effects our entire personality, both internally and externally in how we behave. Its only in women only (and I mean woman - human female) spaces that many, possibly most women can experiance a freedom of behavour (and thought) that just does not exist in mixed sex company.
Its almost a spiritual difference.

There are also things like dignity and religious observance that are issues for many women.

Oh yeah, and good luck with convincing men to be less violent. As the pp just said, they have had hundreds of thousands of years to do that and so far...fuck all.
Even asking them is now illigal it seems.(hurty feels, poor loves)

Just mentioning male violence seems to upset people.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Just mentioning male violence seems to upset people.

Stickers saying 'no men in womens prisons' is very clearly not aimed at all men, but very specifically only the small minority who've been convicted of some illegal activity.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Just mentioning male violence seems to upset people.

What an image. The bare facts of male violence obliterated by blank pastel pink and blue hearts.