School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

I am just going to post the unanswered questions again on this page so I can keep track because they are growing. And readers can see the lack of thought that is coming from the posters who are supporting 14 year old males being accommodated with 14 year old females.

I can only put it down to lack of thought about the actualities of how this would work, because I don't want to think that those posters are aware of the harms and simply ignore them for the sake of being 'kind' and being 'tolerant'.

1. How has this male child has changed so that for safeguarding purposes they are no longer to be treated as male?

2 What studies and statistics are there to prove that these transitioned males are in anyway safer than other males?

3 How many female students are acceptable collateral damage in the name of this 'progress'? How many girls being harmed is acceptable collateral for this supposedly progressive approach? Please give us a number? 1, 2, 10, 25, 1000?

1. What does a 14 year old girl do in a situation where they get to the room and discover that they are actually NOT ok with the arrangement anymore, but because a group of teachers and parents have decided that it is 'kind' and 'nice' that they have agreed to share a space with a male, that 14 year old girl feels they cannot change their mind?

1. Where does a 14 year old girl go if the worst scenario does happen (and we hope that it doesn't ever happen) and they feel that they have to 'live' with their decision and stay in the same room as their abuser. Because, they agreed to this arrangement?

1. How does ships know that no girl has yet been harmed? How many girls live in a world where their abuse takes a while, sometimes years, to process? Or is ships relying on the new style of activist thought of ‘It doesn’t happen. If it did happen, it was just the once’ and not on the historical evidence that even males supposedly deemed ‘100% safe’ do commit sexual abuse? Including loving and caring ‘friends’ and teenagers.

1. Who exactly benefits from lowering the boundaries that protect all females, but particularly children? Who? The women and children involved? Or the person who wishes access to the spaces that the safeguards are there to protect? Or the people who wish to see those boundaries eroded for other reasons that are harmful for those with lowered boundaries?

What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that in every single instance, that male is now exactly the same as them? What benefit is there to those two female students to believe that the sex of the person never matters?

1. 'On a case by case scenario, how exactly does a safeguarding lead ascertain the sexual function of a 14 year old male without asking very private information that should not have to be asked or disclosed? How is this NOT transphobic to subject this male to this treatment when a blanket policy removes any of this requirement?'

Any takers?

Surprised you work in a school and need to ask this. Of course DBS needs to be renewed when the expire, just as it’s good prescribe to have one for each setting even though you may have a valid one already. I have 4 current ones for various work/volunteering roles.
Worrying that someone working in a school, even on an advice basis needs to ask that.

But what if her mum says it’s ok? No DBS needed then, surely!

And I will add-

What do you do when there are 2 transgirls on the same trip and one has friends who agree and one has no friends and a reputation for being a bit creepy.

How do you explain to the parents why Alex is allowed to sleep with theor friends but Ashley can't.

[quote niclw]@foodfiend I haven't read through all of the comments above but as a secondary school teacher who has previously run residential trips I would feel the same way as you. If I was running a trip and was told the policy that my school had was the same as your DD's I would be refusing to take the trip. Safeguarding is about every student so if the school will not take your concern further I would go to Ofsted and raise a safeguarding concern. I would do this myself as a teacher about my own school if I felt it was necessary. In my opinion the trans child should be given their own bedroom in the same way they have their own changing rooms for PE at my school. I hope you get to a point where you find a solution. Good luck [/quote]
I know of a school where a parent was insistent that their daughter who self identified as a boy must be able to share a dormitory with 5 boys on a school trip. This child was new to the school (year 10 I think) and staff raised safeguarding concerns about after learning that other children (including the teenage boys) weren't aware of the situation. The parent then produced a threatening letter from one of the trans organisations.
This resulted in staff refusing to go on the trip which was then cancelled.

Once upon a time, when I was still in my very early 20s and fully engaged in LGBT+ advocacy on the internet, I believed transwomen should use women's toilets, and domestic violence refuges, and that it was a shame that other MNers were such t**fs. At that time, there was an AIBU thread from a mother asking if she should let her daughter's best friend sleep over. The best friend was a male child who identified as a girl.

Do you know what my opinion was? My opinion was NO, because an unplanned pregnancy does not become less damaging to a teenage girl's health and future because the sperm provider has their own problems with gender dysphoria. I remember struggling to explain to clueless people that transgirls (male people who identify as women/girls) could be attracted to girls and women, and that most of my acquaintances were in relationships with women. I suppose it was a long time ago, when the image of transwomen was the male-attracted Hayley Cropper, but there is no excuse for this kind of lazy assumption
now. There are many transwomen in the public eye who are in, or have a history of, relationships with women, and multiple children, from Caitlyn Jenner, Jane Fae, Gabbi Alon Tuft and many more.

And for the record, it is even more important to protect teenage female transboys (female people who identify as men/boys) and female teens who identify as non-binary from unplanned pregnancy, as they commonly suffer from tokophobia (fear of pregnancy and childbirth). This means unwanted pregnancy may intensify their gender dysphoria and thus have devastating consequences for their mental health.

@Isaw3ships

‘ What do you mean by that statement?’

All the speculation re boyfriends suddenly announcing that they’re trans girls to share rooms with their girlfriend and all that other whatif stuff on here. Decisions are made on a case by case.
That’s not going to change any time soon. Unless there are facilities for kids in trips to have Indio rooms.

No. There must be no "case-by-case" decision making. That would be discriminatory. The answer to whether an adolescent male should be allowed to share sleeping accommodation with adolescent females should always be "no".

As it happens, I was in a youth organisation which did have a procedure for mixed sex sharing. It was only ever for exceptional circumstances, each instance had to be authorised by a senior officer, and changing never ever took place together.

I only saw it implemented once, when there was one too many males for the male berths on a ship (I was U18 myself at the time). He slept in the female accommodation, but always changed with the other males and had to vacate if any if the females needed to change. Being on a sailing ship, having six small bunks in a narrow passageway meant that the risk of anything actually happening was fairly low, given the number of potential witnesses (the other occupants, plus passing [female] adults) and the sheer impossibility of squeezing two of you in the same bunk. Even so, groping was a potential risk.

How many times on this thread has it been necessary for posters to explain to some hard-of-understanding posters that there should be no - that means none whatsoever/zero - case-by-case decision making?

Another thing this thread shows is the dogged determination to see Mumsnet as “the Most Transphobic Place On Earth”.

I can’t believe anyone reading this thread, who is new to these issues, can take anything away from this thread other than adults insisting on protection for children and young people. Yet not only are pertinent questions ignored, post are met with a shrug and a response of “she doesn’t want her kids sharing with a trans kid” with the implication that it is transphobic to not want this for your daughter. But ignoring the questions, which boil down to “can you give ANY assurance that a transgirl would not have consensual sex with a natal girl to show where your belief that all will be well to have mixed sex sleeping arrangements comes from?” shows either a) the poster does not understand that a male child with a trans identity is reproductively the same as a boy who does not (worrying) or b) the poster believes trans people are somehow entitled to whatever they want despite what consequences may be, but can’t or won’t explain why that is.

I remember the “no means no” campaign. Some posters here, I’m sure, would a) deliberately and obtusely appear not to understand; b) claim “well, I am sure that there must be SOME circumstances when no means yes”.

No means no. Stop pushing the boundaries.

Well, I think OP can rest assured that any poster who has admonished her, or tried to tell her that her daughter is in the right, or that of course this mixed sex accommodation should be accepted, has no answers to exactly HOW this is to happen.

That it is all a fantasy and that any teacher or safeguarding lead who is championing it, probably has a political agenda that when faced with questions about 'what would happen if...' has no answer that will prevent harm to your daughter.

The fact that not one poster has answered the question as to how this male has changed so that they are different enough to the other males on the trip to be treated as being exempt from safeguarding protocols shows that they cannot answer. Because every one will see that changing sex is not possible. Ever.

It is all very nice to say 'it should happen' but no one can tell you how it 'actually' works.

And how the hell they can actually properly assess each male carefully enough to ensure NOT EVEN ONE girl is ever harmed in this way that is not in itself cruel. I mean imagine telling male A 'you can share', but No male B, 'you cannot share'.

That is the consequence of 'case by case'.

I really think some posters need to front up with actual answers because their credibility is zero or stop trying to shame OP for her stance.

(despite examples historically where this went very wrong and only now 40 years later are victims even able to speak - yes look at the French lowering of age of consent in the name of liberal and progressive thinking

I don't want to derail an important thread but have you any links on this (or to a thread)? I've not heard anything on it and think I need to learn more.

binglebong

There was a good article in the times, but I cannot find it.

But this might be informative too.

www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/25/memoirs-writers-highlight-sexual-abuse-in-france-metoo

This might be of interesting.

France has long had a reputation for having a more relaxed attitude towards sexuality. From the Marquis de Sade to Michel Foucault, sex has often been viewed in intellectual circles as a matter of personal freedom. Matzneff and Springora’s mother are part of the “soixante-huitards”, a generation born from the protests of May 1968 who relished the freedoms of the sexual revolution. In the 70s, intellectuals including Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Roland Barthes and Bernard Kouchner signed petitions calling for a lowering of the age of sexual majority to 13.

And this.

In Consent, Springora writes of how no adults stepped in – parents, teachers, friends, doctors or editors – to stop Matzneff. In La Familia Grande, Kouchner – whose own father signed a petition calling for the decriminalisation of sex with 13-year-olds in the 1970s – writes: “Many knew and most of them acted as if nothing were wrong.” But Page predicts other stories will come to light as the intellectual and cultural elites start to change: “There’s a new generation of women editors and agents who are activists. They are politicised and they are angry.”

As I said, This was the liberal thought at the time with many intellectuals supporting it. Indeed, some took advantage of the law to have sex with children.

As I said, not all ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ is better for society. It is ridiculous to think it is.

Case by case does make sense. That way, all the facts without random speculation and
disaster planning for things that aren’t going to happen. Think about the kids involved

@CrymeaRvr

Case by case does make sense. That way, all the facts without random speculation and disaster planning for things that aren’t going to happen. Think about the kids involved

You know safeguarding is about thinking about the worst possibilities and how to limit the chances those possibilities happen?

Why not attempt answering some of the actual questions asked for pages now. My questions are just at the top of this page. There are plenty of other practical questions though that no one has answered.

Instead posters have indulged in a fantasy that you can tell which male is a risk and which male is not adequately to keep 100% of 14 year old girls safe.

Coming back and admonishing people for ‘disaster planning for things’ is yet another attempt to shame people. It is an indication you have nothing to offer but virtue signaling.

@CrymeaRvr

Case by case does make sense. That way, all the facts without random speculation and disaster planning for things that aren’t going to happen. Think about the kids involved

Disaster planning is what safeguarding is.

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CrymeaRvr

‘ Potentially, the 'case by case' scenario could end up with one girl sleeping in a dorm full of boys. ’

Do you mean a trans boy? Or some scenario where a teen girl wants to sleep in a dorm full of boys?
According to Op - in this CASE- it’s a room for 3 not a dorm. It’s a trans girl who’s friends with the other 2 girls - not some horny teen boy trying to get his end away. And, in this case, the parents have said they’re not happy for their DD to share with this trans girl so it’s not happening.
Which is why ‘case by case’ is relevant.

Do trans girls not have sexual urges and the capacity to fall in love with schoolmates? I assure you, they do. They are teenagers. They develop crushes like other teenagers.

I have a question for you here. Imagine that there is a rule that if a baby is conceived by a pupil on a school trip, the most senior member of staff has to pay all medical costs of the girl, and all financial costs of of bringing the baby up, from birth until 18. Including childcare costs, after-school activities,theirschool trip costs in secondary school and so on.

You are the chief executive of a chain of 50 academies, each comprising 2000 students, and accordinglyyouare the most senior member of staff for all these schools. Sleeping arrangements on school trips at all these schools is decided on a case-by-case basis, butyouwill bear the financial consequences if any member of staff (most of whom you have not met) at an individual school misjudges the situation, and a teenager gets another teenager pregnant.

Are you happy with a case-by-case policy when every individual error by a complete stranger could costyouhundreds of thousands of pounds?

An article by ExcelPope (a school governor) identifying how Safeguarding should work:

extract
"I spend a lot of time designing policies and procedures, and what I tell people is this:- Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

In that vein, here’s a scenario.

You are the head-teacher of a secondary school, with pupils aged 11-18. A police officer arrives at the school and asks to speak to you. They have found a video on a porn site which shows the changing-rooms at your school, including a number of girls, who appear to be aged 13-15, in various states of undress. It has clearly been filmed with a concealed camera-phone.

The video has been taken down, but not before it had tens of thousands of views. The account that posted it has been traced to a student at the school who identifies themselves as trans and was, in accordance with the guidance, allowed to use the female changing rooms.

The police need a female member of staff to view the video with them, to identify the 20 or 30 teenage girls who appear in it, so that they and their parents can be informed that they have been victims of voyeurism.

What did you do to prevent this happening?" (continues)

There are around 2.2 million males aged 13-18 in the UK, no matter how much experience you have with children, with trans people, with trans-children, you cannot absolutely assert that none of them will abuse, or attempt to abuse, the guidance given in a manner that infringes of the rights of other students.

This isn’t about demonising all trans people, or suggesting that any given one of them would act in such a manner. This is about the risk presented by the guidance itself, whether that risk can be mitigated in a manner which is proportional to the potential seriousness of the outcome and whether the risk is, in part or in whole, outweighed by the risks of not implementing the guidance." (continues)

www.excelpope.wordpress.com/2019/02/28/the-unaskable-question/

Facts?

Even the ones you don’t like?

all the facts

The ex-14-year-old boy in me wonders how on earth the modern-day school authorities can possibly know all the facts about what's going on inside boys' and girls' heads about what they're planning for upcoming school trips given the chance of some mixed-sex accomodation.

Must have been some serious breakthroughs I missed.

Or are we talking like some sort of application form here? Score enough points and you get to sleep with someone of the opposite sex?

Please, talk me through this determination process. I'm fascinated to learn more details.

Hang on, just going to nip over to Arabella's shed, grab one of her foldy chairs, and sit here and wait for the presentation.

Well, quite. I think previous posters are labouring under the delusion that a teenager would tell everyone in advance that they thought the privacy of the upcoming overnight trip was going to be the perfect time to reveal their crush and ask their friend out.

Perhaps schools are expected to use mood rings as part of the decision-making process.

Cripes, do I have stories to tell you all about a day trip that turned into adolescent drama after one kid thought the picnic was a good time to publicly act on the crush that no-one knew he had. If it had been an overnight trip, he would have waited until the evening, and they had more privacy- it certainly would have gone rather better for him if he had.

Well I am hoping your wait is not too long Necessary.

I am hoping CrymeaRvr and ships will both simply stop repeating the virtues of ‘case by case’ and tell us all how it works in this scenario.

You have asked questions, I have asked questions, many of us have asked questions.

And….. crickets chirping so far.

Snide and sly remarks and superior morality is all we are getting from them at the moment though.

I wish that just once the TRAs would calmly answer all the questions women asks. If there was a logical dialogue, this would be easier.

In the absence of any sensible dialogue about risks and gender identity, nothing prevents parents to have transgirls - or indeed boys- at a sleepover with their daughters. That is a parental decision which possibly could be done on a case-by-case basis.

This is what a school should be allowed to do when they have parental responsibility. Safeguarding is paramount in this situation and of course worst case scenario needs to be considered. Of course there cannot be any exceptions.

Not read the whole thread but the point of 'case by case' is it doesn't relate to the child but the situation. So "Do girls require safeguarding and privacy from boys (however they identify) in sleeping arrangements on an overnight trip?" That is the case to be considered, not what we think of a particular child or the opinion of the girls.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz (About the Loudoun County rape coverup and aftermath.) Sorry so long.

It’s such a multifaceted, slow motion train wreck but I will attempt the Reader’s Digest version.

It ended up a shit show for the Democrats, as it was election year. The Loudoun County rape cover-up turned an entire state’s election on its ear. Virginia was easily a democratic state, they had a Dem Governor who was a shoe in for re-election and he was many points ahead in the polls. Republican challenger Younkin was never expected to win.

Then came the humiliating fiasco and arrest of Mr Smith (whose daughter was raped) at the school board meeting, where they painted him to look like a deranged lunatic. One famous photo plastered everywhere showed him getting dragged out by policemen at the school board meeting with his large belly hanging out and his bum pulled out of his pants.

We even had Pres. Obama speaking out about it (unusual) and calling the row with Mr. Smith and the rape claim 'fake outrage' and ‘phony trumped-up culture wars'.

Then the coverup by the school board busted wide open after the rapist did what rapists do, raped again.

Two brutal rapes were committed by a trans student; one child was raped and sodomized in the school’s inclusive bathrooms, after which the rapist was hustled off to another school in the dead of night to continue raping.

Within two weeks after all of this came to a head and the rape coverup came to light, the election turned on its ass and R-Youngkin handily won. Youngkin ran and won on keeping our children safe and wanting parents to have a say in what we teach our children.

Moral of the story: Desperate people will sooner get your ass arrested and have the President help cover up your child’s rape, even shuttling the rapist to greener pastures, then come clean about their monumental safeguarding screwups.

Thank you Hellofabore. That was deeply depressing.

DERAIL OVER