School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

Potentially, the 'case by case' scenario could end up with one girl sleeping in a dorm full of boys.

Now do you get it?

Re the fear of being 'transphobic'

There is no working definition of what this is.

Under the Equality Act, there is a requirement to provide reasonable adjustments for those with protected characteristics to ensure equal access to that enjoyed by peers without that protected characteristic.

There is some question as to how exactly children who identify as trans are covered by this anyway, as the protected characteristic is gender reassignment, not identity. However, I'm all for good will and reasonability, so the comparator would be another teenaged male. Is the child who identifies as trans being less favourably treated than other male children present on the grounds of being trans.

No. Obviously not.

The reasonable adjustment that would seem doable is to offer the child who identifies as trans an arrangement to be able to sleep away from other teenaged males if they do not want to be grouped with them, if they feel concerns re their privacy and dignity, because no one should have to undress or feel vulnerable in front of others they perceive as the opposite sex. (Even if they're merely female.)

To provide entry into female accommodation would require agreeing that a male child who identifies as trans is in some way female: a political belief, that not all will share or can be expected to share; some female children are likely to have their access affected by female provision being turned mixed sex and obviously inclusion of one that excludes others is ridiculous, the Equality Act isn't a hierarchy and male children aren't more important than female ones. (And anyone arguing that they are has proven they think in binary sex ways which makes it plain that they don't believe this child has in any way changed sex.)

So no. The trans child is not being treated less favourably due to their protected characteristic. Saying no to a trans person's wishes and failing to prioritise them over other people's needs is not transphobic.

@Deliriumoftheendless

And it’s all so inconsistent with the idea that schools should not put children’s trans status to parents- “hi parents, can your child- who you believe to be a boy- share a bedroom with these girls, for reasons we can’t discuss with you?”

Good point!

@Thelnebriati

Potentially, the 'case by case' scenario could end up with one girl sleeping in a dorm full of boys.

Now do you get it?

But if the girl wanted to,

and the boys were all good friends,

and everyone crossed their hearts that safeguarding just wouldn't matter tonight cos nothing would happen,

and all the responsible adults were positive and hopeful and wished on a star that no child got harmed on their watch while they took this risk against all advice and policy and that their careers weren't wrecked while a child they were responsible for experienced something that may well affect them all their lives....?

I'm sure it would be fine.

Ugh imagine being the teenage girl in a room of three who isn't in a relationship. The one having to put up with their two roommates having sex or even just being together while she's the gooseberry. Teens in relationships shouldn't be sharing sleeping accommodation. And boys should never ever share with girls on school trips.

and all the responsible adults were positive and hopeful and wished on a star that no child got harmed on their watch while they took this risk against all advice and policy and that their careers weren't wrecked while a child they were responsible for experienced something that may well affect them all their lives....?

Yes, and then reassured all other parents that their school has this policy and nothing harmful happened. While the reality could actually be very very different and this person has no idea, or has a political agenda to keep silent, or an incident did occur but the girl involved is still processing and may take a long time to report, or the girl may never report because society has shown her that HER word against a male is not valued.

But, we are assured that nothing happened, nothing ever happens, and nothing will happen.

Because 14 year olds are very good at judging people and their intentions.

So good at it, that they are responsible for their own safeguarding decisions.

I'm supposed to be organising and leading a school trip next year. Starting to think twice ...

But, we are assured that nothing happened, nothing ever happens, and nothing will happen.

Because 14 year olds are very good at judging people and their intentions.

So good at it, that they are responsible for their own safeguarding decisions.

And parents expressing concern are being painted as

• hateful and phobic
• ignorant
• not liberal or progressive
• dinosaurs who have not realised that the liberal and progressive views are the ones that will prevail (despite examples historically where this went very wrong and only now 40 years later are victims even able to speak - yes look at the French lowering of age of consent in the name of liberal and progressive thinking)
• not up to date with how safeguarding works and what it is designed to achieve

@Helleofabore

and all the responsible adults were positive and hopeful and wished on a star that no child got harmed on their watch while they took this risk against all advice and policy and that their careers weren't wrecked while a child they were responsible for experienced something that may well affect them all their lives....?

Yes, and then reassured all other parents that their school has this policy and nothing harmful happened. While the reality could actually be very very different and this person has no idea, or has a political agenda to keep silent, or an incident did occur but the girl involved is still processing and may take a long time to report, or the girl may never report because society has shown her that HER word against a male is not valued.

But, we are assured that nothing happened, nothing ever happens, and nothing will happen.

Because 14 year olds are very good at judging people and their intentions.

So good at it, that they are responsible for their own safeguarding decisions.

Quite.

And as I repeatedly say - while the political lobby we know, from bitter experience, will shrug and walk away from a female harmed in pursuit of these politics that exclusively favour males,

a serious case review won't.

Those professionals will be left swinging in the wind by those politically motivated who led them by the hand into this situation. And a serious case review will point out how bloody stupid it was of them to permit it to happen, to ignore boundaries because 'nice', and 'hopeful', and to permit a kid to be harmed on their watch.

It has to be faced: the political message here is 'females are being harmed in pursuit of providing male people with better lives, but so what?'

This is called male supremacism. It isn't a part of safeguarding.

One of the arguments TRAs like to use whilst trying to roll back the years on safeguarding is the fact that women are most at risk from the males they live with (and therefore males might as well be allowed anywhere they fancy).

Have they not worked out that is simply because living with a woman gives an abusive male unparalleled access to that woman at times she is vulnerable? In the same way sharing a dorm would? Why the hell else do they think this is the case?

Many adult women have agreed to share a hotel room at a conference with a male colleague and good friend at work, or borrowed a bed for the night at a male friend's flat, because they thought the male friend had no romantic or sexual intentions towards them. Then they have discovered on the night that the friend in fact hoped to initiate a sexual relationship, making for an exquisitely awkward situation. Other women have discovered that their good male friend isn't willing to take no for an answer, and that he's in fact a rapist.

Adult women.

And 14 year old girls are supposed to have the judgement necessary to tell whether their friend has solely platonic feelings towards them?

Even if you clearly don’t give a shit about girls how can you say you’re supporting transgirls if you’re ok with putting them in a situation where they potentially could become a dad at 14?

Is that a positive situation for anyone?

It’s all very well crossing your fingers and hoping everything goes safely but life isn’t like that.

Even if you clearly don’t give a shit about girls how can you say you’re supporting transgirls if you’re ok with putting them in a situation where they potentially could become a dad at 14?

Especially given that being shy and embarrassed and hatred of your body is not a requirement of being trans.

Its considered incredibly transphobic actually to assume that's the case.

So this transgirl may well be perfectly happy with their functioning male body amd feel.no need to hide it or not use parts of it for pleasure with others.

Imagine the case by case basis involving a requirement to be dysphoric. That would be considered a hate crime no doubt should another transgirl be denied the perceived right to bunk up with the girls.

So yes why isn't the trans child worthy of being protected from being in that position.

Again transphobic

That of course is a great point Scully.

Let's add it to my list, if I may.

'On a case by case scenario, how exactly does a safeguarding lead ascertain the sexual function of a 14 year old male without asking very private information that should not have to be asked or disclosed? How is this NOT transphobic to subject this male to this treatment when a blanket policy removes any of this requirement?'

On the next page, I shall add that to the list if you don't mind.

I hope ships and other will have a clearly defined answer.

And relying on parents being ok with it ignores the fact that parents often do not have the full picture of their children’s lives.

When I was at school my friend’s sister gave birth and the first her family knew about the pregnancy was hearing a noise, walking in to her bedroom and finding her with a newborn. Up until that point the parents would have confidently said she wasn’t sexually active, didn’t have a boyfriend and would take precautions anyway. They were wrong. Because she had not disclosed (at 15) that she had had sex. Like many kids!

‘ Potentially, the 'case by case' scenario could end up with one girl sleeping in a dorm full of boys. ’

Do you mean a trans boy? Or some scenario where a teen girl wants to sleep in a dorm full of boys?
According to Op - in this CASE- it’s a room for 3 not a dorm. It’s a trans girl who’s friends with the other 2 girls - not some horny teen boy trying to get his end away. And, in this case, the parents have said they’re not happy for their DD to share with this trans girl so it’s not happening.
Which is why ‘case by case’ is relevant.

What case by case criteria are you talking about?

If a horn teenage boy claimed a trans identity the protocol is to affirm it. How do you tell the difference?

How transphobic to he ignoring acceptance without exception.

It’s a trans girl who’s friends with the other 2 girls - not some horny teen boy trying to get his end away.

Excellent. Can you please tell us how you can tell the difference between one male and their intentions and another please?

And do you honestly think a 14 year old female who is has a trans identity should be treated with less care and safeguarding consideration than any other 14 year old female?

@Isaw3ships

This thread is why schools look at it on a case by case basis. Not scaremongering with the what ifs but actually dealing with the trans child, the friends and the parents involved.

This is a great example of "show me you don't understand about safeguarding without telling me you don't understand about safeguarding". The entire basis of safeguarding is risk assessment and putting measures in place to remove or mitigate those risks. And risk assessment is just a fancy name for considering the "what ifs". If you're ignoring the "what ifs" you're not safeguarding.

Ships isn't posting in good faith clearly.

@Isaw3ships

‘ I understand safeguarding surely there's no need to renew my DBS when it expires? I'm no risk?’

Surprised you work in a school and need to ask this. Of course DBS needs to be renewed when the expire, just as it’s good prescribe to have one for each setting even though you may have a valid one already. I have 4 current ones for various work/volunteering roles.
Worrying that someone working in a school, even on an advice basis needs to ask that.

..... this is coming from a supposed adult who states safeguarding is done on a case by cases basis

Well, by these case by case it’s ok if the parents are ok ideas a transboy can share with two boys and I guess a girl could share with two boys - as no one has provided any reasons why this case by case scenario would rule that out as long as the kids are ok with it and the parents too.

Which, again, is not the purpose of safeguarding procedures in a school setting. Parents aren’t the Designated Safeguarding Lead, neither are the pupils. Members of SLT are and they need to justify why mixed sex accommodation is acceptable, not push into to everyone else. That is their job.

@CrymeaRvr

‘ Potentially, the 'case by case' scenario could end up with one girl sleeping in a dorm full of boys. ’

Do you mean a trans boy? Or some scenario where a teen girl wants to sleep in a dorm full of boys?
According to Op - in this CASE- it’s a room for 3 not a dorm. It’s a trans girl who’s friends with the other 2 girls - not some horny teen boy trying to get his end away. And, in this case, the parents have said they’re not happy for their DD to share with this trans girl so it’s not happening.
Which is why ‘case by case’ is relevant.

But what about the horny teen boy go wants to share and the girls think of him as a good friend are are happy? Why can't he also share? Why is it ok to discriminate?

What is the difference between these two children?

@foodfiend I haven't read through all of the comments above but as a secondary school teacher who has previously run residential trips I would feel the same way as you. If I was running a trip and was told the policy that my school had was the same as your DD's I would be refusing to take the trip. Safeguarding is about every student so if the school will not take your concern further I would go to Ofsted and raise a safeguarding concern. I would do this myself as a teacher about my own school if I felt it was necessary. In my opinion the trans child should be given their own bedroom in the same way they have their own changing rooms for PE at my school. I hope you get to a point where you find a solution. Good luck

@CrymeaRvr

‘ Potentially, the 'case by case' scenario could end up with one girl sleeping in a dorm full of boys. ’

Do you mean a trans boy? Or some scenario where a teen girl wants to sleep in a dorm full of boys?
According to Op - in this CASE- it’s a room for 3 not a dorm. It’s a trans girl who’s friends with the other 2 girls - not some horny teen boy trying to get his end away. And, in this case, the parents have said they’re not happy for their DD to share with this trans girl so it’s not happening.
Which is why ‘case by case’ is relevant.

Do trans girls not have sexual urges and the capacity to fall in love with schoolmates? I assure you, they do. They are teenagers. They develop crushes like other teenagers.

I have a question for you here. Imagine that there is a rule that if a baby is conceived by a pupil on a school trip, the most senior member of staff has to pay all medical costs of the girl, and all financial costs of of bringing the baby up, from birth until 18. Including childcare costs, after-school activities, their school trip costs in secondary school and so on.

You are the chief executive of a chain of 50 academies, each comprising 2000 students, and accordingly you are the most senior member of staff for all these schools. Sleeping arrangements on school trips at all these schools is decided on a case-by-case basis, but you will bear the financial consequences if any member of staff (most of whom you have not met) at an individual school misjudges the situation, and a teenager gets another teenager pregnant.

Are you happy with a case-by-case policy when every individual error by a complete stranger could cost you hundreds of thousands of pounds?