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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Female academic fired for loudness

35 replies

MogsBestestFurball · 21/01/2022 15:51

The sex was not included in the headline, but who would fire a man for being offensively loud...
www.theguardian.com/education/2022/jan/18/loud-academic-awarded-more-than-100000-for-unfair-dismissal

OP posts:
EmmaH2022 · 21/01/2022 16:00

I would want to hear the voice of anyone fired for that

I can certainly imagine anyone being loud at work and I have politely asked people to lower their voice, which she says she can't - is that medical reasons?

But the uni are saying they fired her for other reasons anyway.

MogsBestestFurball · 21/01/2022 16:05

What stood out to me was when she talked about her inability to moderate her voice. I immediately thought of neurodiversity. As a neurodiverse woman I have often found that I have been held to higher standards of behaviour than male colleagues, I am expected to know better as I'm a woman. The article does not mention neurodiversity, that's just me projecting.

OP posts:
ANameChangePresents · 21/01/2022 16:08

Bring your whole self to work, dog gimp mask and all. But don't be a loud woman, Heaven forfend.

CovidCorvid · 21/01/2022 16:09

She’s of eastern european origin and says it’s part of her ethnicity that she’s loud and comes across as shouty.

It’s hard to know what’s actually happened here. Is she just loud or has she been shouting at colleagues. 🤷🏻‍♀️

UltraVividLament · 21/01/2022 16:17

@ANameChangePresents

Bring your whole self to work, dog gimp mask and all. But don't be a loud woman, Heaven forfend.
Quite!

I see the university are still insisting that the tribunals have accepted "serious inaccuracies" as correct. I wonder how many judgements will be needed to resolve this??

CorrBlimeyGG · 21/01/2022 16:21

What stood out to me was when she talked about her inability to moderate her voice. I immediately thought of neurodiversity

She claims it is due to her Jewish heritage, nothing to do with neurodiversity.

The university claims there were complaints from PhD students about her behaviour. It's not clear on the limited reporting that these complaints were about.

NumberTheory · 21/01/2022 16:24

The Guardian did an article last year when the ruling was made that explains a bit more about the case (but not much): www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/07/loud-academic-wins-unfair-dismissal-case-against-university

They didn’t find sex or race discrimination except in regards to one comment at a return to work meeting. But they did find the firing unfair and that seems like a big award (maybe not for a physicist?). So not sure what’s going on.

This article makes it sound like they fired her because she shouts at people and blames it on her ethnicity. Not sure I would want people to be able to use ethnicity as an excuse for shouting at people in the work place, but since the tribunal ruled the firing unfair suspect there’s a little more to it than that.

But I also wonder if maybe they may not have taken into account how she had to be when she started as the only female academic in the department and are now wanting rid of those characteristics as things have changed, but it’s unfair on her because she sort of needed to be like that to survive and trailblazer a path…

CorrBlimeyGG · 21/01/2022 16:25

The Sun (of all places!) gives more detail. She sounds like a pretty unpleasant person, who brushes off complaints by claiming she can't help the way she is.

I find her stereotyping of Jewish people as loud and boisterous as pretty offensive.

pawpatrolneedaunion · 21/01/2022 16:33

I have seen male professors have relationships with students, be openly sexist, racist, physically violent. None of them sacked.

CovidCorvid · 21/01/2022 16:52

@pawpatrolneedaunion

I have seen male professors have relationships with students, be openly sexist, racist, physically violent. None of them sacked.
Well they should be. While I agree that women shouldn’t be held to higher standards than men nobody should be repeatedly shouting at more junior staff and refusing to change.
Omicrone · 21/01/2022 17:12

Are Jewish people naturally loud? Confused

I have a loud voice, I hate it, a couple of people have commented on it over the years, DH mentions it quite a lot! I do try and regulate it but I forget a lot of them time. It's doesn't help that I work in a school in quite a noisy environment and need to 'project' my voice a lot of the time!

pawpatrolneedaunion · 21/01/2022 17:21

Oh yes of course they should have been @CovidCorvid but just pointing out the bar is seemingly a lot higher for men's dismissal.

TearifficTaz · 21/01/2022 17:24

As someone who has heard this lady, think Janice from friends x100 decibels

This isn't a feminist issue imo, she wasn't fired for being a woman, the tribunal didn't uphold any sexual discrimination elements of this case.

She shouts at people and tried to pin it on her culture and heritage, whilst also being deeply grating to listen to.

pawpatrolneedaunion · 21/01/2022 18:13

Does this mean shouting at a lower level is ok? It's an odd case!

EmmaH2022 · 21/01/2022 18:21

@TearifficTaz

As someone who has heard this lady, think Janice from friends x100 decibels

This isn't a feminist issue imo, she wasn't fired for being a woman, the tribunal didn't uphold any sexual discrimination elements of this case.

She shouts at people and tried to pin it on her culture and heritage, whilst also being deeply grating to listen to.

Oh. My. God. (Sorry).

I used to switch channels when she was on. I couldn't work with that noise. I wonder what she was like an interview.

I also find the culture and heritage blaming very distasteful.

user1471504747 · 21/01/2022 18:28

Sounds like she lost of the sex and ethnicity basis of her claim and won because processes weren’t followed. E.g their reason for sacking her was sound but they didn’t follow the correct process perhaps in terms of notice, formal stages, meetings etc

It does sound like her behaviour was inappropriate.

Not sure if I’m a fan of automatically linking inappropriate behaviour with autism. If anything the shouting was more like to hurt the ND students anyway.

Imnobody4 · 21/01/2022 18:38

The report in the Sun says

The remedy judgment said it was "difficult to imagine the depth of humiliation, hurt, stress and worry" for Dr Plaut after she was suspended adding: "Every aspect of her life and future was at risk, and for no good reason, and unfairly."

I can't see anything that suggests a deeply unpleasant person. She's been working for decades.

KimikosNightmare · 21/01/2022 18:39

She said her heritage meant that she was naturally loud, her body language was demonstrative and her conversational style was naturally argumentative. She compared this to people of Mediterranean heritage

The race discrimination claim is based on her eastern European Jewish heritage, which she says gives her inherent characteristics (in the way she interacts with people)

Yeah and all Black people have natural rhythm but are useless at swimming and all Scottish people are prudent with money.

TwentyFirstCenturyTricoteuse · 21/01/2022 18:45

I kNow a male who was not only not fired for sexually harassing PhD students but won an award for his research output after he was quietly put on teaching leave.

Lolamento · 21/01/2022 18:57

Loud people are unbearable. I know one that you need to think in advance where to go with her and avoid small restaurants and places of leisure. This person speaks so loud in public places and is very embarrassing.

GoGoGretaDoll · 21/01/2022 19:19

I'm very loud. It's one of the reasons I work from home, because I cba with people telling me I'm loud. It's not something I can regulate unless I really, really focus on it and I'd prefer to focus on my work (as that's what I'm getting paid for). I would find it odd to be disciplined or sacked for something I honestly can't help.

However, I never shout at people!

EmmaH2022 · 21/01/2022 20:29

@GoGoGretaDoll

I'm very loud. It's one of the reasons I work from home, because I cba with people telling me I'm loud. It's not something I can regulate unless I really, really focus on it and I'd prefer to focus on my work (as that's what I'm getting paid for). I would find it odd to be disciplined or sacked for something I honestly can't help.

However, I never shout at people!

What happens if you're visiting someone in hospital for example?

Full disclosure - I asked someone to leave when she was visiting Dad in hospital. I told her twice to lower her voice. Dad and other patients were wincing.

She said to me later that she couldn't help it, but she was quieter in the few minutes after I said it.

I was so relieved she didn't come to the funeral 😂

EmmaH2022 · 21/01/2022 20:30

Oh and how do we define shouting? The lady visiting at the hospital was stuck on shout mode so she'd bellow "HOW ARE YOU FEELING WILLIAM.?"

NumberTheory · 22/01/2022 01:43

@pawpatrolneedaunion

I have seen male professors have relationships with students, be openly sexist, racist, physically violent. None of them sacked.
It could be sexist standards. I don’t doubt they exist. But I wonder if this is more about changing standards. This woman has been in position for more than two decades, I’m sure she hasn’t just started shouting. Moser likely she used to get away with things too, but there is now less of a culture of accepting senior academics can do as they please.
JohnRokesmith · 22/01/2022 02:12

It could be sexist standards. I don’t doubt they exist. But I wonder if this is more about changing standards. This woman has been in position for more than two decades, I’m sure she hasn’t just started shouting. Moser likely she used to get away with things too, but there is now less of a culture of accepting senior academics can do as they please.

There is also the factor of when you become a liability as an academic. Universities are willing to overlook a lot if you are producing world-ranking research, winning grants, or otherwise benefitting the university. If you stop performing, the administration is less likely to ignore the problems you might be causing.

In Plaut's case, she had been suspended twice in the past, and her publication record is hardly stellar (according to ResearchGate she has had 65 papers published in the 29 years, but only ten in the last ten years, of which she was lead author on only two). Meanwhile, given when she joined the department, she is probably on a very good remuneration, which may now be perceived as disproportionate to the value she is delivering to the department.

My suspicion, reading between the lines, is that Plaut won the the unfair dismissal claim because, whilst there may have been adequate grounds for dismissal, the university basically had decided that they wanted to get rid of her, and was looking for the opportunity to fast track her out of her department; this is, of course, not the correct way of dealing with staff, which does constitute unfair dismissal. But it does feel like there is a lot more going on here, which hasn't appeared in the newspapers...