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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scots feel shut out of gender debate, says Kate Forbes

48 replies

Igneococcus · 18/01/2022 19:11

Yes, Kate, that's quite true:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4a88cfc8-785b-11ec-a9ac-7b4ca33c4cb4?shareToken=6259ca0b88c292d7f417ee9df44f488d

OP posts:
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 18/01/2022 19:17

i say it every time this comes up

the electorate DON'T WANT it to be easy to change 'gender'. They either don't give a shit, or are actively opposed.

So why are Sturgeon and the SNP so desperate to push this through at any cost? Cui bono?

PenStation · 18/01/2022 19:21

Quite, what exactly is driving this?

barleybadminton · 18/01/2022 19:35

@PenStation

Quite, what exactly is driving this?
An empathic desire to make the lives of a marginalised group easier perhaps?

Or more cynically a drive to win young people's votes and put some clear blue water between the SNP and the jaded bigots clustering around ALBA.

Cismyfatarse · 18/01/2022 19:38

They were at this long before Alba. It is odd. KF has spoken up before and is a powerful (and thoughtful ally). And I am a very staunch unionist!

Artichokeleaves · 18/01/2022 19:39

I'm afraid more cynically than that, I'd be looking beyond a desire for the young vote or worries about getting it wrong about gay marriage. Follow the money. That usually works.

butnobodytoldme · 18/01/2022 19:54

Those referendum-lovers who have power could try asking the public. If not, why not?

Linguini · 18/01/2022 20:01

A lot of it is down to NS wanting to be distinctively different to the UK, but in a way that's very administratively easy.
She can claim "progressive/LGBTQ+/Stonewall" rainbow points without doing much, and put herself apart from the rest of the UK.
She doesn't care that this position harms Scottish women and girls. She just want to look more rainbowy.
Like Canada.

Toseland · 18/01/2022 20:20

How much are they paying you Nicola? Who is paying you?

It doesn’t make sense to put 51% women + estimated 10% children under 8 = 61% ish of the population at risk.

334bu · 18/01/2022 20:29

An empathic desire to make the lives of a marginalised group easier perhaps?

Pity it doesn't extend to the marginalised women in Scottish Prisons forced to share showers with male sex offenders and female rape victims denied counselling because they can't be guaranteed a female counsellor.

ArabellaScott · 18/01/2022 20:38

@Linguini

A lot of it is down to NS wanting to be distinctively different to the UK, but in a way that's very administratively easy. She can claim "progressive/LGBTQ+/Stonewall" rainbow points without doing much, and put herself apart from the rest of the UK. She doesn't care that this position harms Scottish women and girls. She just want to look more rainbowy. Like Canada.
Yes, this is generally the case. Wait to see which way Westminster is leaning, lean performatively in the opposite direction. Make sure to pop in some eye-catching policies - baby-boxes, Hate Crime Bill, rainbow laces, to detract attention from the larger, more deeply entrenched issues that you have no desire, will, nor ability to address - infrastructure, education, health.
barleybadminton · 18/01/2022 20:41

How much are they paying you Nicola? Who is paying you?

Are you really suggesting someone is secretly bribing her to implement these changes?

But paranoid don't you think?

Selkiesarereal · 18/01/2022 20:42

Whilst her stance is to be applauded especially as she knows the tirade of abuse she is letting herself in for, but I can’t help wonder why now, what is going on politically within the snp who are not known for dissent in their ranks. Also, I don’t recall her offering support to Joanne Cherry but at least it’s another vocal voice in this.

Form1ess · 18/01/2022 21:32

I thought it was a really interesting thing for KF to say (again), like Selkiesarereal I wonder why too. KF is a wee free isn't she? Maybe she has issues of conscience or maybe it's political manoeuvring, no idea.

Artichokeleaves · 18/01/2022 21:43

@barleybadminton

How much are they paying you Nicola? Who is paying you?

Are you really suggesting someone is secretly bribing her to implement these changes?

But paranoid don't you think?

At this point?

I don't think females can be paranoid enough. It was being trusting and believing in good will, that people were telling the truth and that they would be fair, honest and above board that got us into this unholy mess.

And yes. I absolutely believe that funding and personal benefit lies under Sturgeon and the Scots government as it does for every other person who has busily taken advantage of females in this appalling mess.

Waitwhat23 · 18/01/2022 21:45

There's been quite a clear trend recently on here of anti-women posters pushing a narrative that 'GC's' (seems a bit rude, I refer to trans people rather than just trans but the courtesy doesn't seem to be extended the other way) as paranoid, 'tin hats', conspiracy theorists etc etc.

Seems a bit odd given the epic failure of 'it'll never happen'. I suppose this is the next push given the failure of the narrative of 'right wing fundamentalists'.

I found this comment amusing -
'An empathic desire to make the lives of a marginalised group easier perhaps?'. Has there been political debate, resources and policy change to anywhere near this level directed to any of the other groups who are defined as having a protected characteristic? There are 9 after all specified in the Equality Act 2010.

ArabellaScott · 18/01/2022 21:49

Yes, latest wave in past few days is 'paranoid' and 'tinfoil' and other variants casting aspersions on women's mental health.

Plus ca change, pals.

barleybadminton · 18/01/2022 22:07

And yes. I absolutely believe that funding and personal benefit lies under Sturgeon and the Scots government as it does for every other person who has busily taken advantage of females in this appalling mess.

So where is this funding coming from that is being used to secretly bribe Nicola Sturgeon to influence policy?

You do know if you are right she would go to jail for a very long time so I hope you at least have some evidence for this accusation, otherwise I'm afraid it just sounds like crankery.

barleybadminton · 18/01/2022 22:11

@ArabellaScott

Yes, latest wave in past few days is 'paranoid' and 'tinfoil' and other variants casting aspersions on women's mental health.

Plus ca change, pals.

You are right, my language was sloppy. However accusing someone who is making wild claims of a conspiracy with no evidence of being a conspiracy theorist is fair enough wouldn;t you say, it's pretty much the definition of the term and it doesn't really matter what sex they are. And sadly the gender critical movement is riddled with conspiracy theories, as is ths forum, and it's why when tested, in courts, parliament and academia. it all comes crashing down every single time.

It's very seductive to believe in malign actors secretly controlling events behind the scenes but that's not how the world works as I'm sure you as one of the more thoughtful posters on here knows if you are honest with yourself.

ArabellaScott · 18/01/2022 22:16

crankery.

Interesting word fact of the day: 'crank' is in fact a sexed insult. Who knew?

'Crank n Old English cranc, implied in crancstæf "a weaver's instrument," crencestre "female weaver, spinster," from Proto-Germanic base krank-, and related to crincan "to bend, yield" (see crinkle, cringe ). English retains the literal sense of the ancient root, while German and Dutch krank "sick," formerly "weak, small," is a figurative use. '

Waitwhat23 · 18/01/2022 23:04

@arabellascott that's interesting about crankery - I hadn't realised until recently how many insults are female sexed based insults. We've seen witch screamed in peaceful protesters faces, seen hysterical used on a near constant basis and women's concerns dismissed as 'pearl clutching'.

In terms of 'conspiracy theories', the use of FOI have been a clear, consistent way of determining the truth. As an example, women were concerned that the Welsh Government were not correctly consulting or considering the impact on other protected characteristics (including women) through the development of the 'Welsh Government Action Plan to advance equality for transgender people' (2016). An FOI was submitted to request a copy of the Equalities Impact Assessment which should have influenced the policy. The Welsh Goverment claimed in their response to have lost not only the Assessment but every document pertaining to it. Every email, every consultation document, every minute, every handwritten note. Every piece of correspondence through which they had consulted with groups who represented the interests of each of the protected characteristics was apparently deleted, despite the policy being described as a 'living document'.

I can't comment on any accusations against Nicola Sturgeon. My issue with the Scottish Government is not that they are receiving bribes but that the money which is being spent out the public purse to political lobby groups such as Stonewall is directly influencing policies and groups representing the concerns of other protected characteristics are simply ignored. As an example, the Scottish Government removed the word mother from their maternity policy after direct lobbying from Stonewall.

The example of the Welsh Government given above shows that dismissing concerns as conspiracy theories like
(or crankery or hysteria or pearl clutching or other sex based insults) is short sighted at best.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/01/2022 23:13

@barleybadminton

How much are they paying you Nicola? Who is paying you?

Are you really suggesting someone is secretly bribing her to implement these changes?

But paranoid don't you think?

I thought that poster meant taxpayers. They're who pays her, £157,861 according to a quick Google. But she doesn't seem very interested in properly representing them.
Thelnebriati · 18/01/2022 23:54

The end result of bad policies imposed from top down is the same as if there were a conspiracy.
Its unlikely there will ever be proof either way, so ridiculing people who wonder if there is a conspiracy doesn't make you balanced.

If there isnt a conspiracy then politicians have some explaining to do.

DdraigGoch · 19/01/2022 01:34

@barleybadminton

How much are they paying you Nicola? Who is paying you?

Are you really suggesting someone is secretly bribing her to implement these changes?

But paranoid don't you think?

Hardly, this sort of thing happens all the time. Why do you think that Barry Gardiner is in trouble at the moment? We know that the Lib Dems have accepted donations from lobby groups.
highame · 19/01/2022 07:02

I wonder when leaders will get back to that great suggestion of Danny Finkelstein's, look at what is beneficial and acceptable to the majority and work on those policies. It's not rocket science but somehow everyone is trying to be the most progressive without examining exactly what this 'progressive' word has come to mean and who it is adversely impacting.

The hard of thinking class is ruling the world

OvaHere · 19/01/2022 07:03

It's very seductive to believe in malign actors secretly controlling events behind the scenes but that's not how the world works as I'm sure you as one of the more thoughtful posters on here knows if you are honest with yourself.

Except that's exactly how lobbying works. It's what Stonewall have been doing, hence why so many organisations and gov depts that need to retain a degree of impartiality have been leaving their schemes.

Whether one thinks Stonewall was doing it with malign intention depends on your POV. However there's no question they have done a lot of behind the scenes manoeuvring. This has been exposed on numerous occasions. The best current example being Alison Bailey who will face them in court soon.

So sometimes the world does work like that. Nothing as exciting as a cabal of super villains James bond style, just wealthy and self interested individuals/organisations who want things weighted in their favour and policy that benefits their goals. Individuals and organisations who don't care what the collateral damage looks like.