David Badiel thinks jewish people are the group that has been neglected in considering diversity. Hmm, i think he may have forgotten women

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I dont yet know where i stand on the principle that only gay / trans / NB / jewish etc people should play characters that are the same. The question for me instantly flips the other way, so if you are gay you shouldn't play straight characters? I also put my faith in the training and skill of actors. But there is still much to do to open up the entertainment industry to minorities.

But read some of these passages.

Casting is about respect. There is something disrespectful about casting an able bodied person in a disabled part. A deaf actor coined it when she said "deaf is not a costume"
The deep truth of any marginalised identiy is only available to those who live that identity. The deep truth of any marginalised identity is only available to those who live that identity. Casting a non-minority actor to mimic that identity feels, to the progressive eye, like impersonation, and impersonation may carry with it an element of mockery – or at least seem reductive, reducing the complexity of that experience by channelling it through an actor who hasn’t lived it.

Yet, Eddie Izzard can choose to be in girl mode, or boy mode, and we are supposed to celebrate that.

Drag queens are essentially woman face, and now they are reading stories to early years kids in libraries.

Really made me quite grumpy this morning

Oh anyway while reading about those two examples.

I suddenly realised that oh hold on.

I do know exactly what it's like to see people like me represented over and over in ways that are just fgs really?

And that's the group who are all over the place, even less recognition of anything about that group, stereotyped nastily, or have zero characterisation just 'this type you know the sort'). Not all the time. But often something off. But then we're half the population so would be impressive to never get a well rounded, interesting etc female character on film/TV.

'The point being that the outcome of an audience that isn't convinced should be poor ticket sales and reviews, rather than some sort of moralizing over the background, real or imagined, of the actors.'

Ticket sales theatre well yes. Need bums on seats. Larger/more well known venues aren't going to jeopardise that.

Off top of head. Glenda Jackson king Lear she got fantastic reviews. And there was loads of press. Shame sounds like overall production so-so. Her king Lear though was most definitely no problem.

Was that moralising?

What major theatre productions have hired actors to make a point and then because of that, flopped? Not because of anything except audience being turned off by the sort of thing you're thinking of?

Examples?

Lots of groups get forgotten travellers and gypsies would fall into the same sort of category I think, distinctive cultures but just get lumped in as "white."

Porfre

'It's not just Jewish characters but also Muslims.

The amount of times I've seen the token Muslim played by a non-Muslim (usually a Hindu, atheist or a Sikh actor.) And it isnt generally seen as an issue.'

The two examples aren't about 'token' Jewish characters.

I'm not sure why you made that comparison?

I don't understand your thinking there. Makes it hard to reply.

Ancient Gran true. And vv stereotyped, disliked, hated group. Totally as if not people but 'them' iyswim.

IIRC there has been reduction places are allowed to stay for a bit? Which won't have helped.

That's a really tricky area and another thread I reckon unless there's something around acting etc with it? Not my area tbh.

@CheeseMmmm

Ancient Gran true. And vv stereotyped, disliked, hated group. Totally as if not people but 'them' iyswim.

IIRC there has been reduction places are allowed to stay for a bit? Which won't have helped.

That's a really tricky area and another thread I reckon unless there's something around acting etc with it? Not my area tbh.

I was thinking of someone like Bob Hoskins who was the son of a Romany Gypsy but I don't remember him ever playing a gypsy. I think Benedict Cumberbatch played a gypsy in a recent film, Gypsy Boy, I haven't seen it but I don't think Benedict Cumberbatch has had much lived experience of the sort of life the man he is portraying would have had.

Thinking on grans post though-

I've seen points, arguments etc on net about this discrimination/white/Jewish point.

And I mean. It's ridiculous.

Not blaming those who raise it at all it's the current environment for oppression/discrimination etc conversations.

The idea that a group needs to fit into specific defined oppression type boxes of limited number, to be qualified as one that gets shit, IS shit.

I've seen a lot.

Jewish people get loads shit why no one listen care.
Um well erm... White so massive advantage. If not white people can easily see and give shit. White so avoid that lucky you.
WTF? This and this as this means get targeted. And what white definition anyway? Jewish people do not get accepted one of white majority.
You can't get racism! Come off it!
Etc etc.

What's this exchange got to do with the 'you're white' person being staunch fighter for groups who get shit?

Zero. They're saying here's list tick which applies to your group.

NO NO you can't tick that! Put N/A.

OK so this list confirms definitely hyper privileged. That puts you in oppressive scum box. Everything bad ever is your fault. Bye now!

Gran I have no knowledge.

Here well I only know England at all really and not much here about traveller things.

So I'm guessing correct if wrong-

Not many actors out circulating general acting area iykwim
Are there many plays etc written? In past/ recent?

And i don't think hoskins had a shabby career. Does it matter if he didn't play a role as traveller? Would he have wanted to given usually one off parts in things like midsummer with stereotypes etc?

Of course Hoskins had a great career but my point was that what Badiel is saying applies to other groups, I understand his point but it isn't just Jewish people this applies to and on the otherhand as someone pointed out about Muslims it applies to BAME as well, just dividing the world into "white" and "BAME" is too simplistic as the experience of a black person in the US isn't going to be the same as an Aboriginal person in Australia but if we just divide as white/not white lots of people will be lumped into a category and it won't always fit.

Actually if you think about it being Jewish isn't one stereotyped life either. Orthodox or Reform, rich or poor it will vary tremendously.

I think BAME is a horrible way to categorise people (not that they need categorising) as it is implying that everyone who isn't white is the same and will have the same experiences which is just rubbish isn't it. I mean a Saudi prince and an indentured labourer in India aren't exactly having the same lived experience are they.

And i don't think hoskins had a shabby career. Does it matter if he didn't play a role as traveller? Would he have wanted to given usually one off parts in things like midsummer with stereotypes etc? Doesn't that apply to Jewish actors as well, do they want to always play Jewish parts? I don't know maybe they do but Maureen Lipman doesn't appear as a Jewish woman in Coronation St, she's just a grumpy old woman who is pretty astute and quite funny.

So now we are talking about not only "race" but matching specific ethnicity, and religion?

Is it ok for Catholic to play a Baptist?

I saw Temuera Morrison the other day playing a half-Japanese man. Is that off, he needs to stick to Maori roles? Might be a bit limiting?

It's true that not all ethicities are treated the same on this, it basically comes down to whether you are visibly non-white. That's the kine, Jewish people are not treated differently in that. On the other hand if you are brown, you are interchangeable with other brown people to some extent but also you can play white people according to the id pol approach.

The problem isn't that Jews or Muslims or Travelers are treated differently, it's that the premise of the whole enterprise is stupid.

Stupid, and incoherent. That's why it doesn't pencil out, it can't. It will never make sense.

Casting is about respect. There is something disrespectful about casting an able bodied person in a disabled part. A deaf actor coined it when she said "deaf is not a costume"

Hmm. Tricky one. Acting is a craft. The craft of being utterly convincing as someone you are not, with characteristics you don't have, behaving in a way that you wouldn't, for reasons you can't fully feel because their situation isn't yours and their feelings and experiences aren't yours. So you pretend and you pretend so well that you make people believe it. That's acting.

So take Daniel Day Lewis in My Left Foot. He won an Oscar because he played the very challenging role of a man with Cerebral Palsy so well.

Actors of that calibre with cerebral palsy will be hard to find, because actors with CP are hard to find in general, and actors of that calibre are hard to find in general. What is more important in the making of a brilliant film - the best disabled actor they can find, or the best actor they can find full stop?

Obviously an actor with CP doesn't need to act the CP, because that's already who they are. But can they act well enough full stop? Shouldn't the job go to the best person for the job, ie., the best actor?

After all, that's the job. Acting. The job is not having Cerebral Palsy. The acting is not the secondary requirement here.

Same argument for the deaf person. Deaf is not a 'costume' of course, but in the case of acting it is a role. And in all roles there is an element of having to take on the characteristics of another person. in this case, the role of a deaf person. You can find a deaf actor, I'm sure, but can you find a really good deaf actor? Would a non-deaf but completely brilliant actor make a better job of the role overall, than a deaf actor who was just an average as an actor generally, even though they were completely believable as a deaf? What if they weren't especially believable as the character in other ways? Because again, deafness is one aspect of the character, it's not everything about them.

If a deaf person took the role of a deaf person having a MH crisis, or being Autistic, would a person who actually does suffer with their MH or who is autistic have the right to say Mental Illness is not a costume? Autism is not a costume?

I'm not saying don't look for characters with specific disabilities, just don't make that the most important criteria in casting them.

Casting a non-minority actor to mimic that identity feels, to the progressive eye, like impersonation

Of course. But that's the very essence of acting for you. The further you are away from the person you are trying to portray the better we can critique your ability. Otherwise all anyone ever has to do is rock up and olay themselves. (obviously I am not including skin colour in this. That would be silly.)

Grabbing a few comments to do with same area.

'Actually if you think about it being Jewish isn't one stereotyped life either. Orthodox or Reform, rich or poor it will vary tremendously.'

'It's true that not all ethicities are treated the same on this, it basically comes down to whether you are visibly non-white. That's the kine, Jewish people are not treated differently in that. '

The earlier post gave what I thought were really illustrative examples. I've cut out these which loses impact to make briefer-

(About production Falsettos)

'None of the actors or director were Jewish and having the audience laughing at what were intended to be self-mocking in-jokes was really really uncomfortable. Because the audience and the cast were not Jewish. They were laughing at us not with us and certainly not at themselves, as intended.'

(Fiddler on roof production)

'continuously revealing a lack of understanding of the culture it was attempting to portray. For example, the director had Tevye, the male lead, physically threaten women to get them to stay in line. Which just fundamentally misunderstands how patriarchy works in Judaism'

Those are both Jewish written/created and entirely about Jews.

Reading the examples above.
Those things were not anywhere near ok..
They were about a specific group, written from POV of those IN that group.
Their interpretation from someone from outside. In these cases. Led to fundamentals about the stories they were telling missing. When telling a story that's key stuff.

Oh the comments I quoted my post before last.

• Jewish stereotypes. I thought it was common knowledge that a certain set of stereotypes exist?

And that they've been around for an incredibly long time?

The point about specific stereotypes about Jewish people, based on different branch of Judaism etc. Meaning no one set of Jewish stereotypes exist.

I'm not aware of any about rich v poor Jews, or different branches of Judaism. Can you give examples (in a way not incredibly offensive?!).

• FYI there's a related factor here. People who aren't Jewish telling people who are Jewish that they can't be terribly opporessed/discriminated against etc because they are white. Vv unpleasant thing to say to Jewish people.

It’s called acting.

As someone who regularly went to the theatre, whether it was the West End or Am Dram I suggest anyone else who has a problem with different people playing parts not of their background sits through some of the dire performances I have where they have cast in the name of diversity, sexuality and religion rather than talent and then come back and say only certain parts are allowed to be played by certain people.

I have spent hundreds going to a Broadway show only for one of the main characters be played by someone who got the part because he ticked boxes rather than his acting ability
I can’t believe there wasn’t one male actor anywhere who would have not jumped for the part and turned in a better performance

I have seen some really wooden performances done by people who think because they match the physical/sexual/skin colour/religion they don’t think that they have to act as well

Whilst things like the pantomime dame or even Mrs Browns Boys where the joke is that they are not women. I do have a problem when what is quite clearly a trans man or woman in a film or series (especially a minor role) and we are meant to believe that this isn’t some sort of plot twist. Except when there isn’t a plot twist you think what was the point. Was it just some tick box exercise to show how diverse the producers were

Kenny-

You must be aware of the differences between the UK and USA approach to acting?

USA school acting is actor who relates to role personally vv important.

UK being flexible IE convincing and totally believable whatever character is highly valued.

Incidentally. Examples? How do you know the crap actor/s in the production were chosen even if shit?

Have you ever seen any white/straight/male (you talk about men only in your comment)/able bodied actors who were shit?

You believe that Broadway productions actively hire crap actors, in an area where every bum on seat, every review etc means income? In a cut throat, tight margins sector?

Casting is about respect.

Is it? Says who? Do you think every great actress who didnt get a role or even an audition because was a bit too plump or not quite pretty enough feels respected?

Casting is like every other part of a production. It's a cog in the machinery of a business that wants to be the best it can be, in order to make money by attracting the biggest audience possible. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please can you say which post you clipped that from? Context is everything.

In response without seeing context.

sometimes casting needs to consider whether aspects of the role are intrinsic to the story being told. And if so, should actor have/not have certain things that may well be v poorly received.

In entertainment, crass casting can mean low audience. And that is a very bad thing in entertainment generally.

Too plump

Any thoughts on the David baddiel piece?

You personally see no problem with I dunno. An outspoken supporter of Unionist views. Who is member of orange order and participates in parades.

Playing the lead in a dramatisation about bloody Sunday, focus on one of the men killed by army...?

Extreme example. To make point.

Of course sometimes what the production is about, means care in casting.

Disagree?

@CheeseMmmm

Please can you say which post you clipped that from? Context is everything.

In response without seeing context.

sometimes casting needs to consider whether aspects of the role are intrinsic to the story being told. And if so, should actor have/not have certain things that may well be v poorly received.

In entertainment, crass casting can mean low audience. And that is a very bad thing in entertainment generally.

are you talking to me? I'm not sure. But if you mean the casting is about respect quote, it's from the OP.

And its not me saying someone is too plump, I'm saying that I'll bet thousands of women have been rejected for roles because (especially in Hollywood) they've been considered too plump or not quite pretty enough to play the lead role/love interest in spite of being a very fine actor.

But then they'll still take a big box office name (who admittedly might be a great actor as well as being very beautiful) and 'ugly' her up a bit to play certain roles (Charlize Theron in Monster comes to mind) rather than just picking a plainer, more average actor.

@CheeseMmmm

Kenny-

You must be aware of the differences between the UK and USA approach to acting?

USA school acting is actor who relates to role personally vv important.

UK being flexible IE convincing and totally believable whatever character is highly valued.

Incidentally. Examples? How do you know the crap actor/s in the production were chosen even if shit?

Have you ever seen any white/straight/male (you talk about men only in your comment)/able bodied actors who were shit?

You believe that Broadway productions actively hire crap actors, in an area where every bum on seat, every review etc means income? In a cut throat, tight margins sector?

Saying someone is a bad actor who belongs to a certain minority group is something of a no no.

I am well aware of the American style of acting if that is what you can call it because if you can only get jobs taking on certain roles because that is your experience then can you really call it acting.

A certain series a few years ago was congratulating itself for having a trans actor.
How marvellous she was.
I saw a piece of wood that had only a couple of lines at any one time and added nothing to the storyline and if anything they were noticeably so bad that I had to see why they had been given the part in the first place.

I do know that this style is creeping over here.
I know people who work in the industry and someone who was turned down for a part because they weren’t trans or gay even though the director wanted them. The Director walked away from the production as it became something he didn’t want to put his name to. The writers and producers wanted certain people who had lived experience over acting ability.

I don’t think the whole of Broadway go out to actively crap actors but I do think there can be a bit of box ticking going on

SeeMyLanyard

Thanks for where got it! Long thread.

That's part of an extract from baddiel piece. What do you make of his views?

What are your thoughts on my example of when casting with respect IMO would be something to keep in mind when casting?

A certain series a few years ago was congratulating itself for having a trans actor.
How marvellous she was.
I saw a piece of wood that had only a couple of lines at any one time and added nothing to the storyline and if anything they were noticeably so bad that I had to see why they had been given the part in the first place.

Queen's Gambit?

You?

Both completely obvious that they were trans to me as soon as they were on camera. I googled them both instantly. But the characters were not supposed to be trans, at least if they were then it was never mentioned. Just tokenism.