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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"identifies as 8 year old girl" scene from Afterlife

63 replies

MyFirstHypnosis · 12/01/2022 09:59

Appreciate that no-one here needs Ricky Gervais to tell them what to think but I thought some of you would appreciate this scene:

.

I think Gervais is not making a series about identity politics but about cutting through to what matters (that this is someone's father pratting around).

OP posts:
RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 17:40

I did not know this!

I didn’t either. About being previously imprisoned for child abuse, that is.

Can’t say it’s come as a surprise though.

Warmduscher · 12/01/2022 18:21

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

So much of that is great - I love the way he shows up the absurdity of self ID with his “I’m trans because I say I am” - but I personally could have done without what I saw as denial of/apologism for child abuse at the end. And to an extent also denial/minimising of the reality for trans widows. Very few of whom, if any, would feel able to speak about their husbands like that while still married to them and subject to major gaslighting, I suspect.

Telling the girl effectively that she should still love her dad even though he’s a narcissistic twat whose actions are directly harming her, that she should gloss over her own distress, is not a message I’m happy to see being promoted.

But it’s a common theme in all sorts of film and tv portrayals of emotional abuse of children by parents, which is generally not trans related at all. He’s still your dad/she’s still your mum; your mum/dad still loves you really; you only get one mum, etc, etc. Always the onus is placed on the child to accept emotional abuse as a normal part of life, not to recognise it, to suppress their own feelings about it in the interests of understanding and being supportive to the parent who’s hurting them.

Yes, I know this is a comedy ultimately, but I get sick of these messages being repeated everywhere. What that man is doing is not just ridiculous, it’s also a form of abuse of his wife and daughter and real people in a parallel situation get really hurt by it. And their hurt is too often dismissed or underplayed as it is.

childrenoftransitioners.org/

But still. Good to see the “I identify as an eight year old girl” idea being made as ridiculous as it truly is.

I don’t think Tony did tell the daughter she should still love her dad. It was she who said she did. And Tony said of course he’s not an 8-year-old girl. So he was empathising with her and helping her to find a way to live with it until he came to his senses. He acknowledged that she didn’t stop loving him just because of this.

It would have been different if the daughter had said she hated her dad and Tony had said to her “he’s still your dad, etc”.

Scraggythang · 12/01/2022 18:31

@OldCrone thanks for that link.

That’s quite the midlife crisis. Not in any way aided by porn. Obvs.

Ugh.

Scraggythang · 12/01/2022 18:32

That’s enough internet for me today.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 12/01/2022 21:33

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

I did not know this!

I didn’t either. About being previously imprisoned for child abuse, that is.

Can’t say it’s come as a surprise though.

At the time, I think women ended up with their posts being deleted for even intimating that his intentions towards children might be suspect.

And now I find out he was already convicted of abuse.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 23:04

Warmduscher I appreciate what you’re saying but I read it differently.

I don’t know if you’ve come across women on here saying that when the scales fall from your eyes and you see the extent of the misogyny that still surrounds us in the world today, you can’t then unsee it. I don’t know if you feel like that yourself.

I do - and I feel the same about child abuse, especially emotional abuse. Not that emotional abuse is worse than other kinds, just that it’s more invisible, more normalised, more accepted and acceptable.

We don’t see it, a lot of the time, just as we don’t see a lot of the misogyny around us - we’re so used to this being the way the world is that it doesn’t register as abuse in the same way misogyny often doesn’t register as misogyny.

But once you’ve seen it, you can’t unsee it.

And I see it here.

Here’s the dialogue:

He’s still your dad…. He’s your dad and you’ll miss him when he’s not around. My dad died yesterday… I miss him. And I’m old. You love him, don’t you?… Course you do, he’s your dad.

In the context of a father being emotionally abusive to his daughter in plain sight, this is apologism. He’d just asked her, a teenager, if she wanted to “play dollies”, FFS. Using her as an accessory for his fetish/delusion. And he’s invited round the local press to do a feature on him which will inevitably bring awful shame and embarrassment for her because some people in the community will know she’s his daughter whether she’s mentioned by name in the piece or not.

He is treating her as a service human, just like so many men treat women as service humans. And when a parent does that to their child, it’s emotional abuse.

Yes, she says she loves him - but that’s one of the things that is so particularly awful about emotional abuse from a parent: the child does indeed love them, and wants their love, and that’s what makes the whole dynamic so difficult and twisted and damaging.

Also, she doesn’t say that until he prompts her to do so. And what about all the “you’ll miss him when he’s not around” bullshit? What is that if not “shut up and put up”? You see him empathising with her. I think that’s what you’re meant to see.

But I see him denying the reality of the emotional abuse she’s living with, now. I see him doing what countless “sympathetic” adults do in fiction as in RL, and offering a semblance of empathy that actually serves to invalidate and shut down the experiences and voice of the young person they’re talking to.

Imagine if we’d just seen the father physically assault her. Would the same dialogue have ensued? I doubt it. Once upon a time, physical assault was regarded as being as unremarkable by many as emotional abuse still is today: that, thankfully has changed considerably.

But we still have the narrative as a society that multiple emotional assaults should just be shrugged off and accepted as normal (as wallopings once were), and the child should take the responsibility for maintaining a healthy relationship with the parent instead of the other way around - as it should be.

Obviously this scene is fiction - but art and life inform each other, and this piece perpetuates the same old unhealthy narrative, IMO.

And of course these scenarios are happening in real life. Real teenage girls are being asked by their transitioning fathers to go bra shopping with them. Real teenage girls are being pressured to support their fathers on their “journey”, at the expense of having space to explore their own feelings on the subject. Real teenage girls are not being listened to, and told how much they’d miss their dad if he wasn’t around so they just have to put up with their own needs being neglected.

There is real abuse going on. It needs a real response.

I know I’m in a minority with my views. I imagine most people watched it and reacted the same way as you did. I’d be surprised if just one person agreed with me, tbh. But these are my views, and I just wanted to express them.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 23:05

At the time, I think women ended up with their posts being deleted for even intimating that his intentions towards children might be suspect.

And now I find out he was already convicted of abuse.

😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 23:06

Sorry if I missed it, but is there a link to a record of Wolscht’s conviction?

Georgeskitchen · 12/01/2022 23:25

Who on the name of God above would let their grandchildren anywhere near a 52 year bloke dressed as a 6 year old girl?
Words fail me

OldCrone · 12/01/2022 23:49

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

Sorry if I missed it, but is there a link to a record of Wolscht’s conviction?
This is from the gendertrender link I posted earlier:

In 2009 he was charged with 14 criminal offenses of assault, uttering threats, criminal harassment, and criminal mischief. His wife and their two oldest children- then in their late teens- testified against him. He was found guilty of assault and uttering threats. The court also issued a two-year restraining order against him that applied to his wife and all seven of his children.

I haven't been able to find anything more specific about his offences.

Various news items like this one mention that he spent time in prison, but there is no further detail.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-father-stefonknee-wolscht-who-left-family-to-be-a-sixyearold-girl-uses-child-s-play-to-escape-adult-life-a6775051.html

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 12/01/2022 23:59

@Georgeskitchen

Who on the name of God above would let their grandchildren anywhere near a 52 year bloke dressed as a 6 year old girl? Words fail me
I know. Beyond belief.

Then again, we’re talking about the kind of person who would get off on anally penetrating a late middle aged man dressed up as a six year old girl, so…

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 13/01/2022 00:00

The kind of man, that should read. Obvs.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 13/01/2022 00:11

Thanks OldCrone. Doesn’t sound good, does it. It would be good to have more details but hey, the glory of being able to distance yourself from your deadname, eh.

Femisaurus · 13/01/2022 02:12

So Stefonknee used to play with the adoptive parents' young grandchildren. No safeguarding issues there......Hmm

Kanaloa · 13/01/2022 02:27

They weren’t just allowing Stefonknee around the children - they were involved in the whole creepy thing, pretending to be the ‘parents’ to this middle aged six year old trussed out in Lolita clothes I’ve never seen on any six year old.

And apparently according to Stefoknee it’s ‘normal’ to destress and helps them ‘make everything into a game.’ It’s grotesque. There’s absolutely no other fetish people would allow their children to partake in and support like this. Nobody would encourage a couple to practice bdsm in full view of their children or any other fetish. No clue why this couple thought it was appropriate to make family children props in this adult baby/sissification fetish.

JHawkins · 13/01/2022 03:21

@KittenKong

I wonder what the then small kids now think (this was about 8 years ago). Would a stroppy teen really want to introduce them a ‘my six (I assume they haven’t aged) year old little sister’ to their boyfriend/girlfriend/friend/teacher?
Been in hysterics laughing at this to the point my side actually hurts.

Mentioned up thread, but never has the saying/song “stop the world I want to get off” been more applicable.

Bloke in his 50s is now a six year old girl called Stefonknee. I was already in tears at this point before scrolling down to find Stefonknee was previously eight, but the actual seven year old girl in the house wanted to be older so the Stefonknee lowered their age by a further two years. Monty Python couldn’t come up with this stuff in their wildest dreams.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 13/01/2022 08:20

Agree, JHawkins "I was already in tears at this point before scrolling down to find Stefonknee was previously eight, but the actual seven year old girl in the house wanted to be older so the Stefonknee lowered their age by a further two years"

I feel sorry for Armando Iiannucci in this. He couldn't write satire like that. Poor man's career is gubbed.

KittenKong · 13/01/2022 08:24

It reminds me of primary school when they kids are playing ‘families’

‘I’ll be mummy and you are daddy. You are baby’
‘I don’t wanna be a baby!’
‘Ok you can be the dog!’
‘Woof woof’

MyFirstHypnosis · 13/01/2022 09:28

Fwiw, I think you make a powerful point, especially the analogy to a walloping.

I don’t know any victims well enough for them to open up to me. I do know one prominent trans woman whose life is dominated by regrets and second-guessing about the impact of her “ordinary” transition (no 8-year-old shit) on the three children of and rightly so. You wouldn’t know it from her Facebook fan club though.

OP posts:
MyFirstHypnosis · 13/01/2022 09:29

....that was to Roaring.

OP posts:
BraveBananaBadge · 13/01/2022 11:10

I think I'm with warm, although also get what Roaring is saying about this.

On one hand Gervais is making a comedy show and this is not the main theme but a scene that does take some major swipes at the ideology. I image most people watching wouldn't believe such a thing would be real and is just daft.

On the other hand, there's certain dogwhistles in the set up. I don't mean that perjoratively, more an 'if you know, you know' way. And TRAs will go mad at him once they get wind of him taking the piss like this.
If Gervais didn't soften the blow with the scene outside recognising the dad as not so much of a caricature (even if only in context of the loss of his own character's dad) I don't think he'd get away with it - very much reminded me of Chappelle and Daphne.

But I see the deeper point about abuse which is real food for thought.

ArcheryAnnie · 13/01/2022 11:17

Aaaah, Steph On Knee. One of my first denouncings on social media by an old RL friend was on account of that person. I remember it fondly (though it really hurt at the time).

Also at that time, Steph On Knee has a Pinterest page that was half fetish porn, half photos of real little girls in party dresses. That should've been enough to have them be a person of interest, and yet apparently not so. Steph On Knee also published a blog, in the persona of a small girl, detailing the sex life with the "adoptive father".

Not enough "ugh" in the world. That person should've been in prison a long time ago.

Scraggythang · 14/01/2022 12:20

@ArcheryAnnie you got called out as a bigot for having an objection to StephOnKnee?

We really do live in wild times.

I have to say, I’m very surprised the usual suspects haven’t arrived yet to defend little one’s honour.

I wonder why not?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 14/01/2022 12:21

It's odd which threads they don't appear on...

FlibbertyGiblets · 14/01/2022 16:53

Still no tickings-off, I am AMAZED. Almost as if some behaviour can't be handwaved away with strawmen thrown around amid accusations of not being him-clusive.

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