Nicola and the sex survey for schoolchildren

[ArabellaScott]

Thought MNers might enjoy this headline, from the Guardian, no less.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/09/nicola-sturgeon-urged-to-scrap-census-asking-teenagers-about-anal-sex

This survey has been discussed a fair bit on MN. For obvious reasons.

I was irritated by the snarky paragraph about uniting right wing parent groups and progressives right at the start.
The survey is antithetical to childrens rights, pupils’ privacy and informed consent. That information should be the news and set the tone for the article, but the grauniad just dont seem to be able to help themselves.

''The information commissioner is investigating data protection concerns about the census, with at least 10 councils unilaterally deciding to withdraw or review it.''
Thats good news. Hopefully the rest can find their spine before its too late.

Why am I not surprised to see the SNP passing the buck to local authorities/schools I mean it's not as if they did it with their illegal trans guidance for schools or it's replacement (even more dodgy) guidance that has teachers unions in revolt 🤔

Thanks Arabella. That reminds me I must write to my LA to ask them what their plans are re this survey.

It seems to be an accepted tactic to push the agenda from above, then make the individual organisations responsible for the outcome.

So Sturgeon's responses to various problems raised including data protection, privacy and other things was '“Either we can bury our heads in the sand and pretend that young people are not exposed to the issues or the pressures that we know they are exposed to. Or we can seek to properly understand the reality that young people face ...”

There's a fine case of DARVO. Time to give up, Nicola.

she (Eileen Prior, the executive director of scotland's largest parent's organisation) questions why “policymakers need to know about [children's experience of] oral sex”.

it's a bloody good question

and the 'you must fill is a number that uniquely identifies you, but we promise to treat your data as confidential, except in exceptional circumstances (i.e. if we don;t feel like it), thing is just awful.

the SNP are so hung up on the idea that they're the good guys, they can't see that they're behaving with no respect for their citizens

Either we canbury our heads in the sand and pretendthat young people are not exposed to the issues or the pressures that we know they are exposed to because we have added them (and worse) to the curriculum we require teachers to teach. We are also pressurising girls and women to get changed/undress in front of boys and men by insisting they are transphobic if they don't. And of course we don't intend to protect these girls from being the subject of hate crimes - we'very specifically excluded them from that!

It's the reflexive defensiveness of blaming people who point out what are very reasonable issues that gets me. Insinuating that it's about 'sticking heads in sand' when in fact this is not the issue at all. These are qualified, experienced experts in the field raising logistical, practical issues. The response to that should be to take the points on board, not fling accusations and pass the buck.

Still, not sure why I'm surprised, this govt seems to have developed an utterly baked-in inability to be responsive and responsible.

I was irritated by the snarky paragraph about uniting right wing parent groups and progressives right at the start

Yes me too.

"pro-family campaigners" could include many left- wing posters on here looking for things like say wages for house work, financially supporting mothers who don't want to return to paid work, encouraging the uptake of paternal leave and shared parenting. All of which are "pro- family"

“Sturgeon said: “Either we can bury our heads in the sand and pretend that young people are not exposed to the issues or the pressures that we know they are exposed to. Or we can seek to properly understand the reality that young people face and provide them with the guidance, the advice and the services they need to make safe, healthy and positive decisions. I choose the latter.”

I think questions like this in and of themselves expose young people to even more pressure than they experience already. They will think this is what it is expected they would be doing and what everyone else must be doing.

@Thelnebriati

I was irritated by the snarky paragraph about uniting right wing parent groups and progressives right at the start. The survey is antithetical to childrens rights, pupils’ privacy and informed consent. That information should be the news and set the tone for the article, but the grauniad just dont seem to be able to help themselves.

''The information commissioner is investigating data protection concerns about the census, with at least 10 councils unilaterally deciding to withdraw or review it.''
Thats good news. Hopefully the rest can find their spine before its too late.

I was also irritated by the snarky reference, too. Safeguarding children is NOT a right versus left wing issue, and it’s very lazy of the newspaper to suggest this.

I remember the original thread on the issue and was horrified at what was being proposed.

And what’s wrong with being a “pro-family campaigner”?

I think this is another case of seep from the US political landscape, isn't it? Rightwing (US rightwing, which I think is v different from UK rightwing) groups use the 'pro-family' phrase and similar.

There is a section of leftism that seems to use this as a reason to be 'anti family'. I suppose this could even be part of queer theory, (dismantling the heteronormative family unit etc) which Sturgeon et al seem keen to support.

I mean, I doubt they've thought it all through that carefully, but this could be part of that general movement. It's not the first time the SNP have been criticised for trying to move C&YP away from the family and more into the state's purview - see 'named person' etc.

In the Times today:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/13d434e0-71a3-11ec-aacf-0736e08b15cd?shareToken=869a7272b63f7b59e6b2636a5e031b97

Even Argyll&Bute says they are not going to participate in the survey according to an article in the Oban Times last week.

If an adult started asking my child questions like that I would want them arrested.

Imagine young girls in a classroom being handed out this questionnaire by a male teacher. Imagine a teacher or a boy collecting them in and glancing down at someone's responses.

And to Sturgeon's comment "Or we can seek to properly understand the reality that young people face and provide them with the guidance, the advice and the services they need to make safe, healthy and positive decisions. I choose the latter.” I ask, "How does a sexually abused young person go about making safe, healthy and positive decisions?" Also, how does such an abused child go about answering questions like how many times they have had a**l sex if it was their stepfather who did it? And exactly how would that make them feel, even if they ticked, "I'd rather not say"?

This is plainly abusive. As an adult, if I was handed a questionnaire like that at my weekly night class I would feel embarrassed, harassed, anxious and humiliated. I've got a good mind to send Nicola a copy of her own to fill in.

Yes, Linear.

Sturgeon's arguments are shockingly poor. She's taken no account of the very sensible reasons a survey like this issued in a classroom are likely to be poor information and potentially traumatising to the children involved.

It's not like the people who work in this area haven't explained the problems, clearly and rationally. Yet she pretends this is about 'putting your head in the sand'. Effectively she's calling Scotland’s children and young people’s commissioner and Scotland’s largest parents’ organisation pearl-clutchers for asking questions about data protection, children's mental health and the methods of implementing a survey on sensitive issues.

A rational response might have been to listen to the concerns currently being looked at by the data commissioner etc and adjust the plan accordingly. Rather than try to belittle anyone who dares question or criticise the plan and throw hands in the air and pass responsibility. It's becoming a pattern.

Defensive, bellicose government that never, ever takes responsibility or listens to the electorate/expert advice doesn't suggest a healthy democracy.

Whether the classroom is a suitable place to elicit this info is another matter.

@Linearpark

I agree with every word you write. If ANY adult asked my teenagers any questions remotely similar to these, I would not only be apoplectic with rage but would be calling the school safeguarding lead, the board of governors, the LEA.

How dare they??? There is NO context apart from a supportive, therapeutic or medical one in which any individual, let alone 14 YEAR OLDS, need to be asked such questions. I’m simply horrified.

I agree - ask NS to answer the questions first and see how she likes it.

I agree - ask NS to answer the questions first and see how she likes it.

But NS is not an abused child expected to answer these questions about her abuse in a classroom setting, and answer those questions in such a way that suggests she consented to her abuse with the questions implying she is not actually being abused. NS is also knowledgeable enough to know not to answer questions which incriminate herself by admitting to illegal drug use.

So, do we need to write to our SMT at schools to ask whether they are going to be dishing this out to the kids?

With a link to Transgender Trend while we're at it?

Covered on GB News

www.gbnews.uk/gb-views/alex-phillips-nicola-sturgeons-teenage-sex-census-finally-addresses-the-21st-century-is-screwing-up-kids/202094

Sturgeon’s claims that this survey helps anybody understand children and young peoples issues better is disingenuous.

Even highly qualified and experienced researchers in universities would never get ethics permission for this questionnaire, not even if they planned to use it with adults. There is far to great a risk that participants would be caused harm by filling it in, and as they are planning to just hand it out to all pupils, there will not be appropriate support available to all.

It never ceases to astound me what unethical research practices you can get away with in political settings, that universities ethics committees would have apoplectic fits over.

More and more sunlight pouring in on ridiculous behaviour of the SNP/ Scottish Greens.