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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prof Stock is wrong (with a side of It Never Happens)…

39 replies

NitroNine · 07/01/2022 11:03

Someone obviously got your one a thesaurus for his birthday. And apparently his reviewers didn’t see fit to point out that Big Words don’t actually impress anyone &/or make you sound clever. Perhaps he felt a need to overcompensate as a lecturer in Law writing an article about Philosophy that mostly reads as if Prof Stock nabbed a sandwich he was after at a conference one time & he’s exacting his petty revenge with swipes at her for, eg, identifying herself as a Professor of Philosophy on social media & when writing for non-academic publications.

A joy & a delight having yet another man tell us that trans women must have unfettered access to all women’s spaces & they are very exactly just like women. I don’t think I’d heard that they absolutely don’t experience male socialisation before now though…

It really worries me that someone who is in a position of power over young people considers that even if some trans women (or men pretending to be TW) use women’s spaces to assault biological women that’s no justification for excluding TW. That he considers somehow their exclusion would be more harmful, without being able to make a cogent argument for this; & without addressing an entire tranche of the GC position.

It’s a thoroughly tiresome retread of some very tired arguments, but it’s likely to impress some people because it has Links To Studies. And an academic wrote it. It has a veneer of… respectability? As in, it’s not simply shouty-ranty; & it gives an initial appearance of going beyond the whine of “just be kiiinnnddddd”. But it’s “just be kiiinnnddddd” swaggering around in cap & gown & trying to knock down GC arguments - & instead simply showing up the TRA agenda as all sorts of disturbing, misogynistic & frankly lacking in logic.

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NitroNine · 07/01/2022 11:05

Not sure why the link is showing as invalid Hmm

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244020927029

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bishophaha · 07/01/2022 11:06

Your link doesn't work for me

NitroNine · 07/01/2022 11:09

@bishophaha
Link in second post should work - it does for me when for some reason it didn’t in the first post Confused

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bishophaha · 07/01/2022 11:09

Thanks it does now.

A terminological clarification: in using the term “trans” and “cis” in this article, I have in mind Serano’s (n.d.) definition of “transsexual” and “cissexual.” “Transsexual” refers to people who identify with, and live as, the sex that was not assigned to them at birth. This may include undergoing gender reassignment surgery. Everyone else is “cissexual.”

So first up he excludes non-binary people from his definition of "trans", as his defininition requires a sex binary. Ok... let's see where this goes...

OldCrone · 07/01/2022 12:12

They insist that 'woman' shouldn't be defined by biology, but offer no alternative of what they believe a woman to be.

The gender-critical insistence that the category of woman and/or female must be centered on bodily sex (as a biological category) has also come under criticism (Hines, 2018b). Gender-critical feminists tend to draw a sharp distinction between sex, as a biological reality, and gender, as the social construction of sex. In response, feminist critics of gender-critical feminism insist that we have no unmediated access to biological realities: they too become cognitively significant to us through discourse, including the discourse of biology, which is itself (like any other discursive domain) structured by political values. Thus, defining the concepts of “women” or “females” (as gender-critical feminists do) by reference to biological sex is itself a political choice, rather than one that can claim to neutrally reflect what the world is “really” like.

If the category of 'woman' isn't biological, what is it? What is the 'political' category of 'woman' based on? They don't say. If a male person 'identifies as a woman', what is he identifying as?

ThePrionOne · 07/01/2022 12:15

“I argue that the gender-critical feminist case against trans women’s access to women-only (or sex-segregated, or single-sex) spaces suffers from a number of fallacies,”

He misspelt phallusies.

NecessaryScene · 07/01/2022 12:17

But why "women" and "female" specifically? Everything in this passage applies equally to every other word describing something about reality:

In response, critics insist that we have no unmediated access to realities: they too become cognitively significant to us through discourse-all discoursive domains are structured by political values. Thus, defining any concept by reference to reality is itself a political choice, rather than one that can claim to neutrally reflect what the world is “really” like.

And my answer is, yes. Using words to describe reality is a political choice. And I make that choice whole-heartedly because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate. If words don't describe reality, then nothing is true or false, and it is not possible to argue against power.

Masdintle · 07/01/2022 12:25

Nice one, ThePrionOne Grin

Mochudubh · 07/01/2022 12:27

@OldCrone

What a load of incomprehensible bollocks (the bit you quote). What the hell does "we have no unmediated access to biological reality mean"? I suspect the answer is "Bugger all".

I flatter myself that I'm reasonably intelligent but I could barely wade through that paragraph, never mind the rest of the article. It's using fancy words as smoke and mirrors to disguise the fact there's nothing of substance there.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 07/01/2022 12:29

He misspelt phallusies

Grin
Beowulfa · 07/01/2022 12:33

the discourse of biology, which is itself (like any other discursive domain) structured by political values.

Does the author really think a vet that votes Tory and a vet that votes Labour will sex a calf differently?

aliasundercover · 07/01/2022 12:53

The paper is a couple of years old.

This is a good reply:
gfreesam.medium.com/a-response-to-aleardo-zanghellinis-critique-of-gender-critical-feminism-8e0c04911c44

Artichokeleaves · 07/01/2022 12:54

@OldCrone

They insist that 'woman' shouldn't be defined by biology, but offer no alternative of what they believe a woman to be.

The gender-critical insistence that the category of woman and/or female must be centered on bodily sex (as a biological category) has also come under criticism (Hines, 2018b). Gender-critical feminists tend to draw a sharp distinction between sex, as a biological reality, and gender, as the social construction of sex. In response, feminist critics of gender-critical feminism insist that we have no unmediated access to biological realities: they too become cognitively significant to us through discourse, including the discourse of biology, which is itself (like any other discursive domain) structured by political values. Thus, defining the concepts of “women” or “females” (as gender-critical feminists do) by reference to biological sex is itself a political choice, rather than one that can claim to neutrally reflect what the world is “really” like.

If the category of 'woman' isn't biological, what is it? What is the 'political' category of 'woman' based on? They don't say. If a male person 'identifies as a woman', what is he identifying as?

As per usual, it's unreadable and plain bad English. Word salad word salad wanky new age pseudoscientific burble - all to serve the purpose of confusticating everyone into stopping female people being allowed rights or boundaries that interrupt male people's wishes and desires.

That's it. That's all.

No. I'll go for good old Anglo Saxon. Two words. Ends in 'off'.

WeeBisom · 07/01/2022 14:22

By talking about discourse and unmediated realities, he is signalling that he agrees with postmodernism. But Kathleen Stock is an analytic philosopher, and the basis of analytic philosophy is that reality exists. So they are completely talking at odds. If he doesn’t believe in objective reality of course he is going to disagree with her, but that’s just like an atheist disagreeing with a Christian. It’s just odd that he says stock hasn’t considered these postmodernist theories when she has already stated she doesn’t believe in them, and doesn’t use them as the basis for her philosophy! What he really needs to do is persuade Stock and gender critical feminists that their theory of reality (ie it being real and not just a text) is wrong.

RoyalCorgi · 07/01/2022 14:25

Feminist critics of gender-critical feminism insist that we have no unmediated access to biological realities: they too become cognitively significant to us through discourse, including the discourse of biology, which is itself (like any other discursive domain) structured by political values. Thus, defining the concepts of “women” or “females” (as gender-critical feminists do) by reference to biological sex is itself a political choice, rather than one that can claim to neutrally reflect what the world is “really” like.

This is just bullshit, isn't it?

Igneococcus · 07/01/2022 14:31

I always think I have a fairly good grasp of the English language and then I read something like that and I wonder if I might be quite deluded about that.

I have microbes in my freezers (at work) that would make Aleardo very very sick irrespective of his incoherent ramblings about biology and reality.

NecessaryScene · 07/01/2022 14:36

Ah, but what one means by "very very sick" is structured by political values and is a political choice.

Wink
MrsWooster · 07/01/2022 14:39

I stopped taking him seriously when he referenced Hines.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 07/01/2022 15:24

That leaped off the page for me. Hines?!?!?!

And yes. Criticising an academic for not ascribing to the same etic/theory is very poor etiquette. No, it's a rookie error that would get 1st year under grads a bit of a lecture on how to compare and contrast, not to dismiss, alternative perspectives.

He writes and reveals himself to be a twat. A twat who uses big words and convoluted sentences and still fails to hide the extent of his twattery.

KimikosNightmare · 07/01/2022 15:46

[quote Mochudubh]@OldCrone

What a load of incomprehensible bollocks (the bit you quote). What the hell does "we have no unmediated access to biological reality mean"? I suspect the answer is "Bugger all".

I flatter myself that I'm reasonably intelligent but I could barely wade through that paragraph, never mind the rest of the article. It's using fancy words as smoke and mirrors to disguise the fact there's nothing of substance there.[/quote]
Same here. I know the meaning of each individual word but they make no sense when put together.

KimikosNightmare · 07/01/2022 15:48

@RoyalCorgi

Feminist critics of gender-critical feminism insist that we have no unmediated access to biological realities: they too become cognitively significant to us through discourse, including the discourse of biology, which is itself (like any other discursive domain) structured by political values. Thus, defining the concepts of “women” or “females” (as gender-critical feminists do) by reference to biological sex is itself a political choice, rather than one that can claim to neutrally reflect what the world is “really” like.

This is just bullshit, isn't it?

Yes.
KimikosNightmare · 07/01/2022 15:51

@MrsWooster

I stopped taking him seriously when he referenced Hines.
As in Sally?
WeeBisom · 07/01/2022 15:54

"This is just bullshit, isn't it?"

It is bullshit. In order to believe it you have to subscribe to a quite complex theory. Postmodernism isn't something which I would say is obvious or intuitive. So the theory is that you don't have direct access to reality, what the world is really like. The world ONLY makes sense to us through 'discourse', which is writing, talking, using language to discuss reality. Reality is always filtered through language.

There is no such thing as objective 'truth'. Rather, there are just competing discourses --competing theories about the way the world is. None of these theories actually has a claim to describing reality as it really is, because we simply don't have access to that. And these discourses compete based on power. Dominant discourses are the most powerful. you might think that science is true, because it get things right about the world (we have planes, medicine, covid vaccines) but in fact science is just one discourse among many. And it's a powerful one because it's so widely accepted. But that doesn't make it true.

What this means is that the decision about what disclosure to follow is always a political choice based on power. Believing in science is just as political as believing in Christianity. This means we can choose what discourses to follow, much like we can choose what political party to vote for. The TRA theory is that choosing to follow the science disclosure, that there are two biological sexes, is oppressive because it leaves trans women out of the category of woman which they would like to be a part of and also leads to oppression of trans women. It would be a more just, fairer world if we instead adopted the discourse that trans women really are women, and women is a social construct, so we should abandon the scientific view. Stock's error, according to these guys, is thinking that science reflects reality when in fact believing in science is a political choice much like believing in the Tory party.

There are obviously massive errors with this. It's pretty hard to swallow that science, the field that has given us technology and improved our lives immeasurably, is just another 'discourse' among many others like creationism, flat earth theory etc, and that it doesn't actually reflect anything real or true about the world. Quite simply, science works. Believing in crystals and woo doesn't.

Secondly, postmodernism is committed to the idea that there is no objective morality. There is nothing but discourses butting against each other and competing for power. There is no such thing as a 'good' discourse compared to an 'evil' one. So it is difficult to know what exactly they are getting at when they talk about making a political choice to accept trans women as women in the name of justice. What is 'just' or 'morally right' is nothing more than another discourse. There is no objective reason to prefer the 'Trans women are women' model over the 'science' model because you can't point to one discourse being objectively more moral than another. This is to import something objective and real into postmodernism, which postmodernists deny. Note that Butler , the dominant postmodern theorist around today, really struggles to expunge references to morality from her theory. She seems to think the invasion of Gaza is objectively bad and not just a matter of opinion or taste.

It's all bollocks.

NitroNine · 07/01/2022 16:23
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NitroNine · 07/01/2022 16:25

*this, not the

(Error brought to you by inopportune feline headbutting. Not an excuse Zanghellini has.)

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