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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gay Cake Case

298 replies

Lovelyricepudding · 06/01/2022 09:51

The ECHR has ruled that their case was inadmissible. The was the case where the supreme Court ruled Christian bakers should not be forced to say/write something they disagreed with.

My understanding is up to now the case has been based on domestic law which is not the remit of the ECHR. In order to bring a case to them they must pursue a human rights case through the domestic courts first.

[title edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

OP posts:
Lovelyricepudding · 07/01/2022 18:08

gogohm but who are the bigots (intolerant of others beliefs) here?

OP posts:
SantaClawsServiette · 07/01/2022 18:08

@Lovelyricepudding

*Well, except of course that for gay Christian couples, they'd see it as using it for the same purpose and that's the right that civil partnership didn't confer - the right to this specifically religious rite. Sure, the procreation part wouldn't work exactly by the book, but afaik Christians had never barred elderly couples or ones with clear medical reasons for infertility from marrying. So on one side 'nope, marriage only means a man and a woman' and on the other 'ah, continuing revelation, God doesn't really mind if we're same sex any more than he's bothered about mixed fabrics and prawns'. That sort of thing. While I can certainly see why some gay people would takeoink'sview that CP was sufficient or preferable, it's a bit odd to talk about 'gay culture' as if all gay people had one specific culture. There would surely have been many living lives of quiet guilt or unwanted celibacy because despite CP they couldn't 'be married in the eyes of god'. (Im a atheist, I'm not saying this is rational but it's a comprehensible viewpoint.)*

But that is specifically a matter of faith. Are you suggesting we should legislate what people must believe? Or that specific beliefs are unacceptable? Lots of countries certainly try to do that. Just look at the blasphemy laws in Pakistan...

I think there are two elements when talking about marriage.

There is what you are talking about, how to allow for a variety of beliefs that may exist about marriage in a pluralistic society.

But there is also the question, if we have institutionalized marriage, what it is for. We can't write legislation about it if we don't know what function it's supposed to serve. There is really no need for a legal institution in order to recognize that people intend to have monogamous sex or that they are in love or anything like that, it could all be done in some kind of personal sphere.

We have limits on what we recognize as legitimate in terms of institutionalized marriage. Age limits for one, in the UK there are only two people in a marriage, you can't get married to a horse or car or sex doll. The former two have quite different expectations in some other times and places, and there are weirdos who have claimed to marry horses, cars and sex dolls.

Historically in the west reproductive role has been one of the most basic purposes of marriage, more so than romantic love by a fair way. So it was an entirely legitimate discussion to have, whether it made sense or was socially useful to have an institution that was predicated and revolved around issues of sexual reproduction, whether that purpose was in any way relevant in modern society, or if it was still useful, whether admitting same sex couples would undermine in some way the basic principle in the same way that saying women could include a person with the male reproductive role could end up undermining women's rights legislation.

That's all outside the issue of protecting religious belief. But what's important to realize is that people who would make those more conservative argument, like many Catholics, do so because their religion has that view about the nature of the institution. It's not, the law should say this because it's the Catholic view, it's I think the law should say this because it's an accurate way of thinking about society, reproduction, and marriage.

There isn't some neutral secular position we can base social institutions and laws on.

SantaClawsServiette · 07/01/2022 18:12

I'm not sure this is the case in the UK, but in some places with similar cases to the B&B owners, part of it came down to the fact that there are different regulations for people giving accommodation in their won homes vs another place.

So if you own an apartment complex, you can't discriminate on any protected basis. But if you are having a boarder renting a room in your house and eating at your table, you can refuse for any reason you like. It doesn't make you a nice person necessarily but it is allowed.

A B&B seems to be very much on the edge of those things.

Tropics4 · 07/01/2022 18:16

Santa, I think I agree with you, if I'm properly understanding you, if we do not allow for freedom of conscience then as I earlier posted we become Totalitarian. However it should be the individual that decides what his/her conscience allows and of course it's not quite that simple: if I'm a practising medic I can't at the last minute decide I can't carry out an abortion, that would have to be declared on employment and yes it could limit employment opportunities but then conscientious objectors usually and historically must pay a price.
Gay individuals want their life choice respected, fine but don't force others to agree with it, yes they deserve every human right but so does everyone that opposes their choice, the opposers have the right to disagree as long as that disagreement is not a personal attack.
If I dont agree with homosexuality am I homophobic or I just hold a different opinion? careful how you answer or I make you hetrophobic!

KimikosNightmare · 07/01/2022 18:22

The knock on effects of requiring all doctors to participate in all procedures offered legally would have a lot of knock on effects

You would for example be excluding practicing members of certain groups from medical practice

I'd point out with abortion that women are more likely than men to be conservative about it, so you would be excluding more women than men

There are serious questions about what freedom of conscience means when certain beliefs that are allowed for are limited in practice. This is never a binary question but in totalitarian states it's actually a common technique to control thought by making it theoretically allowable but suppressing it materially

And do we really want to say that anything the state may deem morally acceptable and offered as medical care must be performed by all doctors or they must be willing to do it? What about something like elective circumcision? What about assisted death, or euthanasia? What if it's allowed for infants or disabled children or the mentally ill? None of those is far-fetched in the near future

I agree. As I said the mantra on this board is "Don't believe in abortion? Don't have one" but in fairness that has to extend and "don't carry one out"

There would be an issue if too many doctors opted out to the point of making abortion inaccessible. That isn't happening in the UK- not sure about Republic of Ireland. I understand women were still travelling to mainland UK? But that might resolve itself as younger doctors come through.

In the UK I think this issue would only occur if public opinion had shifted to such an extent that the law itself had changed. That would be bad but that's another argument.

FlyingOink · 07/01/2022 18:38

Historically in the west reproductive role has been one of the most basic purposes of marriage, more so than romantic love by a fair way. So it was an entirely legitimate discussion to have, whether it made sense or was socially useful to have an institution that was predicated and revolved around issues of sexual reproduction, whether that purpose was in any way relevant in modern society, or if it was still useful, whether admitting same sex couples would undermine in some way the basic principle in the same way that saying women could include a person with the male reproductive role could end up undermining women's rights legislation.

That's a fair point, uncomfortable for me to think about but worth discussing.

The premise that marriage is about reproduction is why annulments can be granted for reasons of infertility or impotence. However if marriage was only about reproduction, then post menopausal women would not be permitted to marry. I don't know any religion that prohibits this, in some cases widows are supposed to be married off to their brother in law, (and there is no mention of her age) for example.

So there is an understanding that some marriages may not produce children, but that they are a family unit in themselves and that the spouse is next of kin, has power of attorney, etc. Those rights should be shared by same sex couples, as the institution of marriage (or indeed Civil Partnership) is neither religious nor dependent on fecundity.

If we didn't have civil marriages, in registry offices or hotels or wherever, and marriage was entirely a matter for a religious organisation and concerned the production of offspring within a stable family unit only, I'm sure that taxes etc couldn't be affected by marriage status as that would be preferential treatment for religious people, and also there would be zero provision for non-believer straight people to have any form of marriage.

Lovelyricepudding · 07/01/2022 18:50

SantaClaws yes society can determine the rules around what it recognises as marriage. But what it can't do is insist that others don't add other criteria to their own belief and understanding of marriage. So if a gay individual believes that marriage is between men and women and they must remain celibate, or a heterosexual individual believes they must remain celibate because they have never found someone to marry, or someone thinks marriage is an instrument of the patriarchy then you can't insist they believe something they don't or require them to behave differently if it does not impact on your freedoms.

OP posts:
ElftonWednesday · 08/01/2022 02:26

@SantaClawsServiette Any business can currently refuse to provide a service for any reason, except a reason which is not permitted by law.

ElftonWednesday · 08/01/2022 02:30

Gay individuals want their life choice respected, fine but don't force others to agree with it, yes they deserve every human right but so does everyone that opposes their choice

Being gay is not a choice, @Tropics4** Hmm

ElftonWednesday · 08/01/2022 02:34

Personally I don't like discrimination against anyone but I also get annoyed at deliberately antagonising Christians when there are other options. Eg 99.9% of hotels wouldn't bat an eyelid at a same sex or unmarried couple checking in so don't book the one run by bigots, they don't deserve our money

I don't get annoyed by it. I get annoyed at anyone running a business who breaks the law by unfairly discriminating against people. What if they put a sign saying "No blacks" in the window?

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 02:48

Not read all posts or caught up sorry.

Just saw a response to one of mine.

It was my mum (a hosp doc with surgical role) who told me couple decades ago that at her hosp it was at such a level was resulting in delays.

She raised because concerned. We had a chat, that was that. I always rembered though.

'You would for example be excluding practicing members of certain groups from medical practice'

Not true at all. There are stacks of specialisations. It's perverse and self centred to choose a specialisation knowing you will pick and choose which parts to carry out because of your personal beliefs.

There's no need for it it's not the only option.
What about the patients who are supposed to be your number 1 priority?
What about do no harm. Refusing to carry out extremely time sensitive medical procedures is appalling. That's not giving any thought to the patient/s impacted and what delays might mean. It's prioritising your personal beliefs ahead of patients and ignoring any negative impact on patients, or deeming anything that could result due to this refusal unimportant.

That's utter shit.

I'm sure those who say that's aok are aware of the impact of HCPs around the world having religious objections to abortion?

That in the UK one country even though abortion legalised women and girls in practice find it incredibly hard to find anyone who will actually do it?

In USA in some states the tactic of anti abortionists is to introduce laws making it very hard, expensive, complicated, financially risky to carry out this service.

Why? Because making it incredibly hard to find anywhere that will provide an abortion, and again given the time sensitive point.
Have an effect of reducing the number of abortions in the state massively.

Saying oh well can't see that happening here. Here can't be UK because it is right now an issue in UK.

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 03:00

'The knock on effects of requiring all doctors to participate in all procedures offered legally would have a lot of knock on effects'

Like what?

Abortion
Contraception
?

Are there many JW a and e coalfront docs who refuse to say patient needs blood transfusion?

Are there many strict Muslim docs and nurses who refuse to touch patients the opposite sex?

What about brethren who refuse to use the computer systems for anything?

The principle that HCPs refusing to treat patients on religious beliefs is obviously the way it should be, is something I can't understand.

It causes massive harm to women and girls around the world. It is an issue in the UK.

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 03:15

Guardian 2020

'Dr Laura McLaughlin, consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist from Doctors for Choice NI, said: “Some GPs have been very vocal about being obstructive towards either a service or any woman that comes to them for help [for an abortion].”'

Obstructive.
Elsewhere in article says that refusing to refer is happening amongst other things (have a scan first and talk about the baby development with presume HCP (wasnt clear).

Glad to hear that for some, so what.

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 03:20

' That isn't happening in the UK'.

Well all that statement says is you're going on guesswork. Assumption.
Doesn't indicate views/comments coming from informed consideration.
But views coming from personal BELIEF that when it comes to delivering healthcare, going into a speciality where you will refuse to have any involvement in a legal, extremely common, sometimes life saving procedure is definitely the right thing.

KimikosNightmare · 08/01/2022 03:26

There are stacks of specialisations. It's perverse and self centred to choose a specialisation knowing you will pick and choose which parts to carry out because of your personal beliefs

General practice isn't a specialisation.

I concede these statistics don't record anyone who couldn't access abortion or was refused (is anyone refused in the UK for any reason than the pregnancy is too far gone?I don't know)

210,860 abortions were reported in England and Wales in 2020, the highest since records began.

In addition women are accessing abortion earlier.

The proportion of abortions that are performed at under 10 weeks has continued to increase since 2010. In 2020, 88% of abortions were performed under 10 weeks, increasing from 82% in 2019 and 77% in 2010. In comparison, abortions performed at 10-12 weeks decreased from 9% in 2019 to 6% in 2020. The percentage performed at 20 weeks and over decreased from 2% in 2019 to 1% in 2020

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales-2020/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2020

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 03:29

': if I'm a practising medic I can't at the last minute decide I can't carry out an abortion, that would have to be declared on employment and yes it could limit employment opportunities but then conscientious objectors usually and historically must pay a price.'

Well fuck that. The impact on patients is entirely absent from your thinking.

The last minute refusal, time to find someone else, could result in the death of the mother.

That didn't cross your mind? If it did, what was your reasoning in discarding that as a consideration?

Instead your concern is for the poor doc who might get a negative note on employment record??!

And then the resigned unfairness of that doc possibly experience a negative impact for acting according to their conviction that their beliefs are the most important thing?

Yowzers.

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 03:32

Kimoko- I am well aware that general practice is.. general. Not specialist.

I posted earlier how I believe GPS who won't prescribe contraception. Same for abortion referral as that's come up.

I used the word SPECIALISM in my posts about abortion not just for fun.

You have got the wrong end of the stick.

I've not read whole post so will do that now and see if not relevant given the misunderstanding.

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 03:37

You've missed out Northern Ireland!

Why? Given I've pointed out I thought pretty thoroughly that access was an issue for women and girls in that UK country?

Your post doesn't address the actual points I made.

If you believe it's right for docs to refuse to get involved in certain chunks of their SPECIALITY that they chose.

Then that's your view. Why not simply say that rather than going off on a tangent?

KimikosNightmare · 08/01/2022 03:45

I missed out Scotland too because at the moment I can't be bothered trawling through 2 further sets of data . E & W are by far the biggest by population.

KimikosNightmare · 08/01/2022 03:59

posted earlier how I believe GPS who won't prescribe contraception

Genuine question - how often does this happen? I think you said it happened to you ? When? (If you don't mind my asking)

I googled "my GP refused to give me contraception" and got 1 result. And it wasn't the GP who refused. It was a pharmacist at Boots who messed up an emergency supply. Changing GP to doctor got no results.

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 04:14

@KimikosNightmare

I missed out Scotland too because at the moment I can't be bothered trawling through 2 further sets of data . E & W are by far the biggest by population.
Have you read my posts even?

You can't be bothered about NI?

If you did read posts why not focus there in the first place?

SantaClawsServiette · 08/01/2022 04:17

@CheeseMmmm

'The knock on effects of requiring all doctors to participate in all procedures offered legally would have a lot of knock on effects'

Like what?

Abortion
Contraception
?

Are there many JW a and e coalfront docs who refuse to say patient needs blood transfusion?

Are there many strict Muslim docs and nurses who refuse to touch patients the opposite sex?

What about brethren who refuse to use the computer systems for anything?

The principle that HCPs refusing to treat patients on religious beliefs is obviously the way it should be, is something I can't understand.

It causes massive harm to women and girls around the world. It is an issue in the UK.

You need to read more carefully before you post.

How about, gender transition by prescribing hormones?

Assisted death?

Euthanasia?

Circumcision?

Bariatric surgery?

Management of care for birth surrogates?

You are happy in all these kinds of cases that doctors who think they are problematic should simply not be allowed to practice, or that students who have issues with these kinds of things not be accepted as medical students? And no, a few aren't currently legal in the UK but they are in many other places and that seems to be the general direction of travel in western democracies.

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 04:32

Was on pill 16-32.

Maybe GP refused about 5 or 6 times. And each time they explained that prescribing contraception went against their religious beliefs/ or just said beliefs.

Then about how they would see patient assess etc but would not/could not sign actual prescription.

They would print it off and wait until other doc could sign so can collect later/ wait reception.

That sure I understood why the delay getting prescription.

Or versions like that.

This would all be delivered while sitting opposite, 1-1 (obv!), face to face quite close as happens at doc, maintaining eye contact.

And subjective here but I was there.
Facial expressions around the area of smug, self righteous, superior, condescending.

As mentioned earlier.

Should be (maybe is these days?)
eg
oh sorry printer not working let me go and get this sorted won't be a minute.
Ok fine, you can wait in reception while I get prescription sorted won't be long. Unless you want to pick up tomorrow.

I mean anything that wasn't frankly totally unnecessary, definitely IME pointed, and for sure strong judgemental undertone.
Different patients will have different reactions to that.
Could be on pill for godawful reasons doc doesn't know.
I know it was like that for friends as well. One (RC culturally at RC school) was pretty upset and angry about it. She was right to be so. Because going to doc for prescription should not be like that!

SantaClawsServiette · 08/01/2022 04:39

@FlyingOink

Historically in the west reproductive role has been one of the most basic purposes of marriage, more so than romantic love by a fair way. So it was an entirely legitimate discussion to have, whether it made sense or was socially useful to have an institution that was predicated and revolved around issues of sexual reproduction, whether that purpose was in any way relevant in modern society, or if it was still useful, whether admitting same sex couples would undermine in some way the basic principle in the same way that saying women could include a person with the male reproductive role could end up undermining women's rights legislation.

That's a fair point, uncomfortable for me to think about but worth discussing.

The premise that marriage is about reproduction is why annulments can be granted for reasons of infertility or impotence. However if marriage was only about reproduction, then post menopausal women would not be permitted to marry. I don't know any religion that prohibits this, in some cases widows are supposed to be married off to their brother in law, (and there is no mention of her age) for example.

So there is an understanding that some marriages may not produce children, but that they are a family unit in themselves and that the spouse is next of kin, has power of attorney, etc. Those rights should be shared by same sex couples, as the institution of marriage (or indeed Civil Partnership) is neither religious nor dependent on fecundity.

If we didn't have civil marriages, in registry offices or hotels or wherever, and marriage was entirely a matter for a religious organisation and concerned the production of offspring within a stable family unit only, I'm sure that taxes etc couldn't be affected by marriage status as that would be preferential treatment for religious people, and also there would be zero provision for non-believer straight people to have any form of marriage.

The reasons for allowing people who were unlikely to have children is a little less straightforward than we tend to assume I think.Part of it was simply practical - for people who suffered from infertility it wasn't typically clear why that was or whether it was likely to be permanent, it may have been completely unknown before they were married.

But there are other factors too - one being that in many cases where people were known to be incapable of producing children, it was considered to be a better thing if they did not in fact marry. It was also not uncommon and was considered to be completely reasonable for people past childbearing age to live apart or enter monastic life if their social position allowed it.

But the Christian European view of illness, and that includes age, was that potentially it was something that could be healed. If not in fact, who knows, a miracle might even happen. There were after all examples of very old mothers in the Old Testament, and in Christian belief in the New Jerusalem everyone would be healed of their afflictions.

Widows being married to brothers is interesting because it's in part about social care, which arguably we manage other ways. But we could maybe compare it to things like pension arrangements and such which relate to marriage but not procreation. Although the other reason that widows were sometimes married to their brother-in-law was so they could produce a child to inherit the first husband's property. The brother in law effectively provides an heir for his brother.

I tend to think that if marriage was a personal matter only, you would either find non-religious people would simply forgo it, seeing it as irrelevant (which many do now) or they would set up their own types of observances, like some of the humanist groups do. There are after all plenty of completely secular rituals that we have as a culture.

But I do think there is a really significant difference between discussing the pros and cons of an institutionally defined partnership that is fundamentally predicated on potential reproductive capacity, and the way it's been approached in a number of countries as a matter of rights - essentially saying that a nation has no right or mandate to create an institution or laws based around biological sex categories - that to do so is fundamentally discriminatory. I think that sets up a really dangerous precedent that could, and maybe has, had significant implications in other areas. And also in the minds of citizens making decisions about the direction of our culture.

CheeseMmmm · 08/01/2022 04:51

Anyway this is about-

Refusing to be involved with abortion when you decided to specialise in area of medicine it comes under. IE you knew your beliefs would mean not delivering full remit of area chosen.

I just think that's an awful thing to do.

There are so many options. In fact just seen it's 65! In UK.

The education, training for that specialisation, taking the place when you know you will be taught about things you find deeply wrong, (do they opt out those bits?). The hosp training etc. NHS provides.

Conscientious objection to abortion globally is a massive issue and causes issues for women and girls. Also risks, some severe.

Saying oh it's not going to happen here (oops NI let's just ignore that) is imo a weak argument.

I mean obv I could go on I always do!

I found the comment from another that right to refuse at last minute, with concern for the doc and apparently zero thought for the patient really horrible tbh.