'Massive' rise in use of incel sites

[ArabellaScott]

This is hugely alarming.

'The number of visits to hate-filled “incel” forums, where users discuss raping women, has increased more than fivefold in nine months, data shows.

Since March, UK web traffic to three of the largest incel — meaning involuntary celibate — websites has grown from 114,420 monthly visits to 638,505 in November,'

'Jonathan Hall, Britain’s independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, said it was not yet possible to say whether hateful incel content could be deemed terrorism.'

Hm.

One of the comments:

'If incels targeted any other group therewould be a massive outcry. Because they 'only' recommend torturing women the are in line with our patriarchal misogynist culture and people just tut mildly. It's scandalous.'

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/massive-rise-in-use-of-incel-sites-that-call-for-women-to-be-raped-hddbq5mgc

Wow, there are a lot of deletions on here. I can't recall what hte posts were, I don't think they were inflammatory?!

Are there a lot of reports when women talk about male violence, or something?

How odd.

Thanks for the rec, Oneearring, I shall seek it out.

Wow, there are a lot of deletions on here. I can't recall what the posts were, I don't think they were inflammatory?!

I assume it was the links. For some reason. Interesting though that things were either being watched or being reported quite so quickly.

I assume MNHQ are on this thread so can we get a quick explanation/clarification please (and thank you)?

This seems to be a subject that makes people very uncomfortable. As it should. One would think that would mean it requires more talking about.

This is so frightening. Biological males seem to have such a propensity for violence and so many of them seem to hate women so much.

I also find it scary that women don’t seem to be allowed to talk about this? I assume there are a lot of reports on this thread, trying to get a thread about male violence taken down. That is grotesque.

I know that several of the deleted posters are very careful with what they post so it is not any hateful posts either.

@MrsTerryPratchett

Wow, there are a lot of deletions on here. I can't recall what the posts were, I don't think they were inflammatory?!

I assume it was the links. For some reason. Interesting though that things were either being watched or being reported quite so quickly.

This. The speed in deleting is astonishing really, considering how long other things are left for. I also wonder if it was a report deletion or they're keeping an eye on us just in case.

The support humans and whores have malfunctioned.
The Plymouth murderer's prime target was his mother, wasn't it, and the other victims including that poor little girl and her dad were random. Which may be why, despite the fact that he was active on Incel forums and claimed as a 'hero' by them (), the incident wasn't deemed to be motivated by his incel beliefs by the counter-terrorism officers.

What is it that is triggering deletions? Has anyone had emails to explain? Can you say the reason?

Is this something to do with talking about incels? We are allowed to talk about incels, aren't we?

It is interesting to note how strongly women are policed in their language and discussion, and even the police becoming extensively involved in attempting to take suffragette ribbons and tweets to court - and yet the article discusses how action cannot be taken regarding the noted online groups repeatedly discussing rape and killing until it has been carried out sufficiently to prove it really is a pattern and something to worry about.

The increasing double standards for male people and female people is becoming too large to go on ignoring.

I was on the last thread that went poof, in fact I had the honour of the final post. I think my post is still relevant to this new thread, so I've re-typed it out.

In my younger years, when I was first starting to look into feminism, one of the big sites which would have quotes/screenshots shared around as examples of incels was called Return of Kings. The site owner 'Roosh', orginally came to my attention with a post which has remained in my memory since, in which Roosh admitted to committing what "could be considered rape", by having sex with two girls he had to hold down after they repeatedly said 'no'.

Roosh deleted it but the web archive has kept a copy of his post for posterity <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20100621133239/www.rooshv.com/when-no-means-yes" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'When No Means Yes' which makes for distrubing reading but demonstrates the mindset behind these men. The original comments below the post and the sidebar from the web archive are a wonder to behold. Absolute disdain for women as actual living, human beings of worth.

Incel sites, such as the one above, epitomises Germaine Greer's quote: "Women have very little idea of how much men hate them."

I'd want to look at it in light of larger patterns with things like radicalization and mass movements.

There are certain preconditions that make those things a lot more likely in any society, and I suspect that they are at play with these people too. For example a lot of broken family connections. Little investment in the community around them in terms of connections or work. Poor prospects for the future in terms of jobs or family life. No sense of meaning in their life, or to life in general, a kind of nihilism.

Those things tend to create an aggressive response in people and people who are very vulnerable to messages that seem to create meaning or connections or purpose. At a time when there are more and more young people without meaningful romantic/domestic partnerships, it makes some sense that those things could be a focus for generalized aggression.

I was going to post about the Glasgwegian pick up artist who was convicted of threatening and abusive behaviour.

So I googled.

Conviction overturned on appeal.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54011850

@MrsTerryPratchett

I'd argue that this is the usual mix of nature, nurture and environment.

They are already maybe a combination of not physically attractive and/or not socially predisposed and/or short and/or overweight. If they were female they would be trained to believe that this is a moral failing which is their fault. And they'd spend time and money trying to correct it. However, men are taught (media, internet etc.) that men deserve a beautiful woman. Just look at comedies. Stunning woman/fat, ugly, ignorant man. It's a trope.

There's probably some trauma. Again, if they were female, they'd turn that inwards with eating disorders, depression, addiction and self-harm. But men are taught that anger is an appropriate reaction to trauma. Turning trauma outwards into violence (not always but more frequently). Men tend to be lower in empathy when tested. Nature or nurture, who knows?

Now they go online and are told that none of these feelings or facts are their fault. The support humans and whores have malfunctioned. You don't bother with a machine's feelings, you fix it. They're livid that these machines aren't acting how they are supposed to. Look at history and sociology. In every other time and place men own women. They do as they are told. The exact things which make women feel lucky (the vote, equalities law, work, medical science, contraception) make these men feel unlucky. They were born in the wrong time in the wrong place. Women's place is where men say it is.

And there you go.

Exactly this.

I tried putting some time into arguing with men online who are on the outskirts of the ideology and this is exactly it.

@MrsTerryPratchett

Would they do that to any other place which radicalises?

Of course not. Even The Times themselves live up to the very notion that women aren't important (unlike other groups) so everyone can head on over to the Incel websites and join in the attack.

Can you imagine the outcry if they had linked to a terrorist extremism site?

That increase is seriously frightening, is there a link I wonder with lockdowns, wfh and isolation?

I am voluntarily celibate after failing to find a safe, healthy, mutually respectful relationship. But I’m also a mother of a daughter and the sheer entitlement and objectification of women displayed by this group of men makes me fearful for her and other womens safety.

[quote ItchySnoof]@MrsTerryPratchett

Would they do that to any other place which radicalises?

Of course not. Even The Times themselves live up to the very notion that women aren't important (unlike other groups) so everyone can head on over to the Incel websites and join in the attack.

Can you imagine the outcry if they had linked to a terrorist extremism site?[/quote]
I'd say that's because regardless of what the articles actually say incels are stull viewed with a certain degree of amusement/ridicule and even sympathy . They aren't seen a REAL threat.It's hidden,but it's there.

from the New Statesman link above:

'The crucial ambiguity with incel-inspired attacks surrounds the question of whether they have the purpose of advancing an ideological cause. While incels certainly share a set of deeply politically rooted misogynist beliefs, their world-view is relatively loose compared to traditional extremist ideologies, and may not necessarily have a strategic aim in mind. So-called black-pilled incels, who subscribe to the view that there is little hope for unattractive males to succeed under the current social hierarchy, are particularly nihilistic, despairing and self-pitying, with no clear strategic goal within the movement (more accurately described as an online subculture). '

Bloody hell - that Roosh archive post and the comments. I genuinely had no idea that my ex had so much (bad) company in the belief that no means yes. Horrifying.

@Biscuitandacuppa

That increase is seriously frightening, is there a link I wonder with lockdowns, wfh and isolation?

I am voluntarily celibate after failing to find a safe, healthy, mutually respectful relationship. But I’m also a mother of a daughter and the sheer entitlement and objectification of women displayed by this group of men makes me fearful for her and other womens safety.

I imagine given the rise in dv there's some correlation.

[quote ErrolTheDragon]Here you go

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/massive-rise-in-use-of-incel-sites-that-call-for-women-to-be-raped-hddbq5mgc?shareToken=90b8b079a393f2bbbe9dfc2acfc67cb8[/quote]
Thank you for linking to this. I feel sickened after reading it, especially the “praise” directed at the Plymouth shooter. I honestly feel quite despairing.

Thank you to everyone who answered my question about the "why" of incels. They seem to find solace in bitterness and even more dysfunctional behaviour. It is hard lesson to learn that you are at the bottom of the hierarchy whether it be in attractiveness or economic potential. It is sad to think that, assuming most people want to find a partner, that there are equal amounts of women who won't find one.

www.counterterrorism.police.uk/new-prevent-statistics-warn-of-increase-in-young-men-becoming-fixated-on-violent-extremism/

'Counter Terrorism Policing has warned that a rise in the number of boys and young men becoming interested in violent extremism without a clear ideology ... 'Mixed, unstable or unclear’ ideology relates to instances where people exhibit a combination of elements from multiple ideologies (mixed), shift between different ideologies (unstable), or where the individual does not present a coherent ideology, yet may still pose a terrorism risk (unclear).

..we are getting better at spotting and recording this type of behaviour, which can manifest itself in a number of ways – such as a fascination with all types of extremist or violent content, including school shootings or even extreme misogyny ideologies such as Inceldom...

...“There are many factors which can make people vulnerable to radicalisation, but we believe social isolation, problems in people’s lives and, in some cases, mental health issues, complex needs and behavioural disorders can contribute '

So the police seem to be classing 'inceldom' as a form of terrorism and worthy of reporting to Prevent/Act Early.

actearly.uk/

So incels get angry and sometimes violent with women for saying no. I’m seeing parallels with trans rights activists, who threaten women with violence and verbally abuse them for saying no. It’s misogynistic males throwing their toys out of the pram because they are being denied something they feel entitled to isn’t it?

This story has also been covered in the Guardian:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/03/glorification-plymouth-shooter-incels-prompts-calls-for-action

There’s an interesting comment about UK users of incel Forums being critical of the UK government, due to the lack of affordable housing, sustainable employment and mental health support. And social isolation being a factor. Years of austerity and now COVID, combined with a rise in misogynistic far right ideologies has created a toxic storm.