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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Do you believe in biology?

63 replies

RVN123 · 22/12/2021 18:00

Just wondered if anyone actually believes in biology anymore?
Do you think we should lobby schools and universities to change their curriculums to include the new scientific facts?
E.g.
Men can become women
Women can become men
Genetics don't matter
Men can give birth
Men who give birth are not mothers
Sex is on a spectrum

etc.
Do you think we should be censored if we ever dare to speak about biology, even when we are not being derogatory towards anyone but just speaking biological truths?
Do biological truths even exist anymore?

To quote Homer Simpson, "'I'm the magical man, from happy land. I live in a gum drop house, on Lollipop Lane"...........

I'm being sarcastic.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 23/12/2021 00:21

@NoNotMeNoSiree

“You go straight into let's scrap biology, people obviously don't know about it!
Er, yes they do.
Doesn't mean they can't support and accept people who are trans too.“

This below is India Willoughby describing the biology of being transgender. She says that all embryos begin as female. I dont think
what she says here shows much knowledge about biology, and I am sure the woman next to her was nodding in agreement. Many viewers will have accepted that as the truth too.

What about Stonewall talking about same gender attraction in regard to gay and lesbian women? SW’s sense of biology is inaccurate there.

Or the idea of the sex spectrum which is inaccurate?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=8HrL9Ys6uXQ

JellySaurus · 23/12/2021 00:48

I don't 'believe' in biology, it happens whether or not I believe. Just as I don't 'believe' I'm a woman, or have some special kind of feminine, womanly essence. Being a woman happens by virtue of being an adult human female - I don't have any choice in the matter.

In other news, water is wet.

JellySaurus · 23/12/2021 00:51

She says that all embryos begin as female.

That's what I was taught 35 years ago. But I was also taught to keep a person warm if they had a fever, and to put butter on burns.

Funnylittlefloozie · 23/12/2021 07:30

I don't think I've ever seen a post here suggesting not supporting people who believe they are trans. The only time people get really upset is when transwomen demand or force access to women-only spaces, usually for no other reason than they can.

Grimchmas · 23/12/2021 08:25

@Funnylittlefloozie unless supporting means unquestioning and immediate referral of teens and pre-teens for experimental drug treatment and surgery. Then there's some lack of supporting around here Wink

Perfect28 · 23/12/2021 08:30

Op you don't want discussions though do you, you want a place to rant. You want your views heard and to trump other views.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2021 09:18

@Perfect28

Op you don't want discussions though do you, you want a place to rant. You want your views heard and to trump other views.
Does she? Do you have some other views on any of the various issues alluded to by the OP you'd like to share?
ScrollingLeaves · 23/12/2021 09:30

“Perfect28

Op you don't want discussions though do you, you want a place to rant. You want your views heard and to trump other views.“

Which view?
That factual biology about sex is not being taken into account, or understood to be the basis of everything, when discussing trans gender issues?

That myths and beliefs (and cancelled thoughts) are trumping biology in discussions and policies related to trans gender?

That ‘female/woman/mother’ as biological descriptors of half the human race, and the agency and experience of their living bodies, is being excised from language?

Do you Perfect28 think that there is no fact? That all views are equal? That all things are relative?

Original poster
RVN123 · 23/12/2021 09:39

@Perfect28

Op you don't want discussions though do you, you want a place to rant. You want your views heard and to trump other views.
This is a joke considering that two discussions were vetoed by MNHQ to satisfy those who find biology offensive or too contentious to discuss. It seems that those like yourself who consider discussions about biology to be a "rant" are actually "trumping" other peoples views because the discussion invariably gets shut down unless the poster believes in fantasy and lies over measurable, objective biological truths.

And lets be clear.
These are NOT my "views". These are the basic laws for all mammalian life on earth.

You are entitled to you own opinions.
You are NOT entitled to your own facts.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2021 09:41

👏 👏

Findwen · 23/12/2021 09:42

Men have always been able to become women. We have always been at war with Oceania, and we thank David Paisley for increasing the chocolate ration.

NeedsCharging · 23/12/2021 09:49

Perfect please share your views on believing in biology or not.

EndoplasmicReticulum · 23/12/2021 10:00

There was a thread a while back where one of our visitors promised to come and tell us how it was completely possible for humans to change sex.
But then they never did.
I was disappointed.

Blibbyblobby · 23/12/2021 10:15

@NoNotMeNoSiree

Doesn't mean they can't support and accept people who are trans too.

Of course people who are trans should be supported with the challenges of being gender-nonconforming.

As should female people be supported with the challenges of being female in a structrurally and culturally sexist society.

And, sex being real and not the same thing as gender identity, there is no reason the support for female people cannot be separate to and coexist with the support for trans people. And of course it should be open to female people who happen to be trans, should they need it.

Given that this thread is about the reality of sex, can you please clarify how gender identity and biological sex relate to each other? I am still very unclear about what trans women and cis women have in common that no other humans do, and why that commonality, even though it cannot be externally perceived (hence the need for self id) is yet considered by genderists to be more relevant to how a person navigates, is treated by and experiences society in terms of safety, dignity, opportunity, employment, harassment, respect, sports and so on than the physical fact of body sex.

Wheresthebeach · 23/12/2021 10:19

Agree women are being told to shut up and give up their rights. Its why Fair Play to Women, and Sex Matters are so important.

I've not seen what's been shut down today, but if Mumsnet isn't allowing discussions about biological reality that's going to be a real shame.

I do think the tide is turning, Stonewall being seen for what it is, but we've a long way to go.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2021 10:27

It was a news story re items 4&5 on the OPs list yesterday, WheresTheBeach.

Mumsnet does allow some discussions about biological reality. It's explicitly stated in the guidelines that they do. The tricky part is to navigate the space which is sufficiently civil (which in general is a good rule), but harder is the 'not generalising' vs 'not focussing too much on a named individual' type of thing.

nauticant · 23/12/2021 10:51

My favourite new scientific fact is that the treatment transwomen receive enable them to grow a cervix. David Lammy should be up for some kind of award for this.

twitter.com/LBC/status/1443125834626260993

JellySaurus · 23/12/2021 11:03

I am still very unclear about what trans women and cis women have in common that no other humans do,

Please do not label us 'cis' women.

Transwomen insist on the 'cis' in order to create a false commonality, as if certain males and all females are both subsets of 'women'.

We are not a subset of women. We are females. We are women.

JellySaurus · 23/12/2021 11:05

Hah! That's the gender critical woman speaking. Of course according to trans ideology it would be that certain males and certain females are both subsets of 'women'.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2021 11:27

I am still very unclear about what trans women and cis women have in common that no other humans do,

Apart from the easy one... most people who adopt those labels don't care about women's sex based rights? (There are some honourable exceptions among TW)

Blibbyblobby · 23/12/2021 11:47

@JellySaurus

In this case I'm using "cis" to refer to women who identify themselves as cis - the ones who do recognise something gendery in common with trans women.

I entirely agree that many - probably the majority - of female people do not identify as "cis women".

I choose to use genderist words if I am asking genderists to explain their core concepts because I think it's fair to ask them "on home ground" so to speak. I think rephrasing genderist concepts in a way a gender critical person would think of them is missing the point, kind of by definition! I genuinely want to hear how genderists think about this stuff (I do seek out genderist sources and talk with trans people as well).

JellySaurus · 23/12/2021 12:12

Fair enough.

I think the answer to what they have in common is that they are co-religionists, members of the same faith.

I doubt they would express it that way!

RedPandaWanda · 23/12/2021 12:18

Well according to the male to female trans woman in my family, biology really doesn’t exist (or at the very least is irrelevant), they were and always have been female! Yet how can they explain the fact they have impregnated two cis women which resulted in 3 live born humans. Is that not biology, or did the stork bring these children down to earth? Pfff!

Jux · 23/12/2021 12:23

I don't know why this hasn't been banished and mocked in the same way Creationism was. It's ridiculous.

ErrolTheDragon · 23/12/2021 12:28

@Jux

I don't know why this hasn't been banished and mocked in the same way Creationism was. It's ridiculous.
Creationism, unfortunately, is far from being banished in the US and elsewhere.