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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

please help critique this letter to a journal

23 replies

AgathaMystery · 22/12/2021 13:26

Hey all, I want to send a letter to a journal I subscribe to but I would appreciate some thoughts. I am not even sure if i will send the letter or if I am clear on what I want to say. Here it is:

Dear Oli & fellow radicals,
I read with real interest both the Editor’s view & Inclusivity & Diversity Update #3 in the most recent (171) issue of the Mag. Thank you for opening us up to these difficult decisions. I was fascinated to read about the anonymous letter you received in response to Alys’ piece ‘Embracing the power of and’ because when I read it, I wanted to send a letter too – but I was too scared! I was not prepared to send an anonymous letter because I consider all ARM members to be my sisters & I wanted to be open & to be myself. So I did not write, because I was scared.

As a midwife & as a woman I believe that biological sex is irrefutable and that humans cannot change their biological sex. I know that this belief is protected in law (Forstater v CGD Europe UKEAT/0105/20 in accordance with Section 10 of the Equality Act 2010) & that I cannot be discriminated against for holding this belief. However, I can (& have) been hounded off Twitter & am only able to send this letter today because I feel that if I do not speak up, I will not be able to look back & say that I did all I could to support & protect women & girls.

This leads me to the ARM new inclusivity statement. Thank you to the group of women who have done this work & written this statement. I was especially gratified to read the final sentence about the lived experience of women. However, I would like to know if the ‘right to self-determination’ is a thinly veiled move towards self-identification? I cannot be the only member who noted the irony of the opposite page being dedicated to the Afghan Midwives Support Group – a group of women who cannot possibly identify out of their current situation.
As a feminist & a woman I do not support self-identification for trans individuals. I do not want to undress at work – or try on clothes in a shop – in a room with a biological male. I do not want my daughter competing on the hockey field against a biological male, on a Brownie camp with biological males and I do not want to see any more single-sex spaces for women and girls erased. I also do not wish to participate in some men’s autogynephilic fantasies including, but not limited to, using pronouns that are very clearly at odds with an individual’s biological sex.

How we move forwards as midwives remains unclear. Thankfully we are autonomous practitioners so I will continue to practice as I do, respecting my clients. I have cared for 2 trans men in my career, both of whom detransitioned in the post-natal period. We must be mindful & kind to these women, who may have made irreversible decisions about their bodies as teens & children leaving them unable to breastfeed or enjoy their health as adults. We will no doubt see, going forward, trans men who have had radical mastectomies as young adults, who have low bone density & who have never been through puberty & are thus adults with pre-pubescent brains stuck in a holding pattern of behaviours that do not align with their biological age.
I would ask that you withhold my name & address but I can often be found on the feminist boards of Mumsnet if anyone feels similarly to me.

OP posts:
Rightsraptor · 22/12/2021 14:20

Hi OP. Former midwife here, and a previous ARM member. However I haven't seen the inclusivity statement you refer to.

I have only skimmed your letter so far, looks good, but maybe a bit long? One thing that occurs to me is that they are, as you know, the association of radical midwives and that 'radical' means root/stem or some such iirc. So they must surely acknowledge that it's only females (however presenting) who give birth. With a name like theirs they can hardly go woke. Can they?

I am interested to see that you've cared for 2 trans men and both detransitioned post natally.

QuestionNumberOne · 22/12/2021 14:24

Great letter.

Go through and edit and make it a bit clearer and shorter but yes - fantastic. Salute, sister.

AgathaMystery · 22/12/2021 14:37

Thanks girls (is girls okay? Hell I dunno any more). I will edit it further.

And yes, ARM are woke. Absolutely.

OP posts:
TedGlenn · 22/12/2021 14:52

I think you mean sex is immutable, not irrefutable (although it is both!)

Rightsraptor · 22/12/2021 14:56

I just don't get how anyone who deals in the nitty gritty of human existence, like birth, could ever be woke. It's even more insane for midwives to believe it than for most people. I despair!

AgathaMystery · 22/12/2021 16:07

@TedGlenn

I think you mean sex is immutable, not irrefutable (although it is both!)
Thank you. This is exactly why I wanted to share it. It needs to exactly right before I send it.
OP posts:
MsGrumpytrousers · 22/12/2021 16:11

Great letter but I agree: it needs to be shorter and more focused. I think I might take out the bits about sport and Brownie camp and keep it about midwifery.

AgathaMystery · 22/12/2021 16:18

Okay will do. Thank you.

Dear Oli & fellow radicals,
I read with real interest both the Editor’s view & Inclusivity & Diversity Update #3 in the most recent (171) issue of the Mag. Thank you for opening us up to these difficult decisions. I was fascinated to read about the anonymous letter you received in response to Alys’ piece ‘Embracing the power of and’ because when I read it, I wanted to send a letter too – but I was too scared! I was not prepared to send an anonymous letter because I consider all ARM members to be my sisters & I wanted to be open & to be myself. So I did not write, because I was scared.

As a midwife & as a woman I believe that biological sex is immutable and that humans cannot change their biological sex. I know that this belief is protected in law (Forstater v CGD Europe UKEAT/0105/20 in accordance with Section 10 of the Equality Act 2010) & that I cannot be discriminated against for holding this belief. However, I can (& have) been hounded off Twitter & am only able to send this letter today because I feel that if I do not speak up, I will not be able to look back & say that I did all I could to support & protect women & girls.

This leads me to the ARM new inclusivity statement. Thank you to the group of women who have done this work & written this statement. I was especially gratified to read the final sentence about the lived experience of women. However, I would like to know if the ‘right to self-determination’ is a thinly veiled move towards self-identification? I cannot be the only member who noted the irony of the opposite page being dedicated to the Afghan Midwives Support Group – a group of women who cannot possibly identify out of their current situation.
As a feminist & a woman I do not support self-identification for trans individuals. I do not want to undress in the changing rooms at work with a biological male. I do not want to see any more single-sex spaces for women and girls erased.

How we move forwards as midwives remains unclear. Thankfully we are autonomous practitioners so I will continue to practice as I do, respecting my clients. I have cared for 2 trans men in my career, both of whom detransitioned in the post-natal period. We must be mindful & kind to these women, who may have made irreversible decisions about their bodies as teens & children leaving them unable to breastfeed or enjoy their health as adults. We will no doubt see, going forward, trans men who have had radical mastectomies as young adults, who have low bone density & who have never been through puberty & are thus adults with pre-pubescent brains stuck in a holding pattern of behaviours that do not align with their biological age.

I would ask that you withhold my name & address but I can often be found on the feminist boards of Mumsnet if anyone feels similarly to me.

OP posts:
AgathaMystery · 22/12/2021 16:19

It’s still so long. I may ditch it entirely.

OP posts:
Bralessandfree · 22/12/2021 16:26

I thought it was very good as it was. I enjoyed reading it. Send it.

Chilver · 22/12/2021 16:28

Hi, I am a layperson here, not familiar with this journal nor with your profession, however the letter to me seems to end rather abruptly and also without purpose - I agree with your points but am not sure what you are asking apart from one question buried in the middle? Perhaps re-order it and have a clear purpose with what you are hoping to get out of writing it?

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2021 16:39

All the midwives I know in RL are gc, OP. As is probably unsuprising. Smile

Letter's good, but if you're looking to shorten it, a few suggestions?:

Dear Oli & fellow radicals,
I read with real interest both the Editor’s view & Inclusivity & Diversity Update #3 in the most recent (171) issue of the Mag. Thank you for opening us up to these difficult decisions. I was fascinated to read about the anonymous letter you received in response to Alys’ piece ‘Embracing the power of and’ because when I read it, I wanted to send a letter too – but I was too scared! I was not prepared to send an anonymous letter because I consider all ARM members to be my sisters & I wanted to be open & to be myself. So I did not write, because I was scared.

As a midwife & as a woman I believe that biological sex is immutable and that humans cannot change their biological sex. I know that this belief is protected in law (Forstater v CGD Europe UKEAT/0105/20 in accordance with Section 10 of the Equality Act 2010) & that I cannot be discriminated against for holding this belief. However, I can (& have) been hounded off Twitter & am only able to send this letter today because I feel that if I do not speak up, I will not be able to look back & say that I did all I could to support & protect women & girls.

This leads me to the ARM new inclusivity statement. Thank you to the group of women who have done this work & written this statement. I was especially gratified to read the final sentence about the lived experience of women. However, I would like to know if the ‘right to self-determination’ is a thinly veiled move towards self-identification? I cannot be the only member who noted the irony of the opposite page being dedicated to the Afghan Midwives Support Group – a group of women who cannot possibly identify out of their current situation.
As a feminist & a woman I do not support self-identification for trans individuals. I do not want to undress in the changing rooms at work with a biological male. I do not want to see any more single-sex spaces for women and girls erased.

How we move forwards as midwives remains unclear. Thankfully we are autonomous practitioners so I will continue to practice as I do, respecting my clients. I have cared for 2 trans men in my career, both of whom detransitioned in the post-natal period. We must be mindful & kind to these women, who may have made irreversible decisions about their bodies as teens & children leaving them unable to breastfeed or enjoy their health as adults. We will no doubt see, going forward, trans men who have had radical mastectomies as young adults, who have low bone density & who have never been through puberty & are thus adults with pre-pubescent brains stuck in a holding pattern of behaviours that do not align with their biological age.

I would ask that you withhold my name & address.

I wonder if a last para should ask something of ARM? Clarification? Support? An acknowledgement that many of their members will have diverse views on the subject?

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2021 16:40
  • I mean, feel free to ignore my edits there, just suggestions for where you may be able to cut if you feel it's too long!
EmpressCixi · 22/12/2021 17:05

I’d delete this
are thus adults with pre-pubescent brains stuck in a holding pattern of behaviours that do not align with their biological age

Because you’re basically saying all trans adults have the mental capacity and behaviour of a 10yr old (puberty start average age). It’s insulting and needlessly discriminatory. There is also zero evidence that puberty blockers halt the development of your brain or affect your mental maturity or capacity.

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2021 17:10

“Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

but -

'A study in 2017 of men with late stage prostate cancer found that treatment with GnRH analogs affects cognitive functions such as language ability, short-term memory capacity, mental flexibility, and inhibitory control.'

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28188757/

'A recent analysis of evidence by Professor Michael Biggs, who researched the Tavistock GIDS ongoing Early Intervention study, indicated some significant and worrying emotional/behavioural effects reported after children had taken puberty blockers for a year:

‘Natal girls showed a significant increase in behavioural and emotional problems’, according to their parents (also from the Child Behavior Checklist, contradicting the only positive result). One dimension of the Health Related Quality of Life scale, completed by parents, ‘showed a significant decrease in Physical well-being of their child’. What is most disturbing is that after a year on blockers, ‘a significant increase was found in the first item “I deliberately try to hurt or kill self”’ (in the Youth Self Report questionnaire).'

www.transgendertrend.com/tavistock-experiment-puberty-blockers/

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2021 17:11

Also:

'Puberty represents a period of profound transition in terms of drives, emotions, motivations, psychology and social life. Recent preliminary evidence from developmental MRI studies has suggested that stage of puberty might play an important role in adolescent brain development, perhaps more so than chronological age'

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3410522/

EmpressCixi · 22/12/2021 17:37

@ArabellaScott
None of those studies show that trans individuals who have taken puberty blockers are “adults with pre-pubescent brains stuck in a holding pattern of behaviours that do not align with their biological age”

The first study in 2017 on the men with prostate cancer compared treatment with GnRH analogs versus treatment by complete prostatectomy. The study therefore did not and could not conclude whether the deficits were caused by leaving the cancerous prostate in the body or by the GnRH analogs themselves as there was no control group where no treatment was done at all.

The second study shows increase in mental illness and suicidal behaviours during the first year on puberty blockers. Mental illness/suicidal behaviours are independent of age. Children, teens, adults with brains that align with their biological age all can develop mental illness and exhibit suicidal behaviour. In addition, the risk of mental illness/suicide actually increases from childhood to young adulthood, peaking in middle age for everyone, puberty blockers or not.
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2018registrations

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2021 17:40

I'm just going to refer back to the NHS quote there, which I think is probably most apt:

'Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.'

EmpressCixi · 22/12/2021 18:00

[quote ArabellaScott]Also:

'Puberty represents a period of profound transition in terms of drives, emotions, motivations, psychology and social life. Recent preliminary evidence from developmental MRI studies has suggested that stage of puberty might play an important role in adolescent brain development, perhaps more so than chronological age'

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3410522/[/quote]
Think you’re over stating the evidence a bit there. This same study mostly talks about nonhuman animal studies, and when it addresses humans, the only cognitive studies down actually show decline in facial recognition ability during puberty and correlation between puberty hormones and an increase in risk taking/drug use/sensation seeking behaviour. So not really saying lack of puberty hormones= stuck with a child’s mental capacity and cognition.

“Very few neuroimaging studies have associated brain development with pubertal stage, and yet there is tentative evidence to suggest that puberty might play an important role in some aspects of brain and cognitive development.” p1

“In humans, however, there is very little understanding of the specific relationships between puberty and adolescent brain development.” p5

“Because age and pubertal maturation are often correlated (and age is easily measured with great precision and validity, while puberty is often estimated with rough categorical measures that are not easily validated), there is a need for studies with designs that explicitly disentangle puberty and age effects (e.g. recruiting samples that are the same age and grade level but differ on pubertal maturation, and then restudying longitudinally).” p7

“Only a small number of empirical behavioral studies have focused on the effect of puberty on a particular cognitive process. Some of the earliest studies focused on face processing. A study by Carey et al. [1980] showed that, while performance in a facial identity recognition task improved steadily during the first decade of life, this was followed by a decline in performance at approximately age 12. This decline may be due to puberty, rather than to age per se, as a later study showed that females at mid‐puberty performed worse those at pre‐ or postpuberty, when these groups were matched for age. More recently, evidence for a pubertal “dip” in facial emotion processing was shown [McGivern et al., 2002]. In this study, male and female participants aged 10–17 performed a match‐to‐sample task in which faces showing emotional expressions were matched with emotion words. An increase in reaction time of around 10–20% was shown at an age corresponding roughly to puberty onset (age 10–11 years in females, 11–12 in males), which then declined during adolescence to reach prepuberty levels at age 16–17.” p16

“For example, there is increasing evidence that adolescent changes in sensation‐seeking may include some puberty‐specific changes, and may provide new insights into adolescent risk taking. Sensation‐seeking is one of the developmental contributors to risk behaviors and is more likely to emerge during adolescence than any other time period [e.g. Arnett and Balle‐Jensen, 1993]. Sensation‐seeking tendencies appear to be more strongly linked to puberty than to age [Spear, 2000]. One of the first studies to demonstrate the specific link between sensation‐seeking and puberty focused on adolescents within the narrow age range of 11–14 years. Boys and girls with more advanced pubertal development had higher ratings of sensation seeking and greater drug use [Martin et al., 2002].” p18

“In summary, few studies as yet have investigated the link between puberty and cognitive development, and this area will be an interesting focus for future research.” p18

“Further behavioral and neuroimaging studies are needed in which accurate and reliable measures of puberty are taken, to shed light on how puberty hormones influence the development of brain structure and function. Clearly, there is great value in achieving a better understanding of the relationships between the brain, cognition, behavior, and puberty.” p20

EmpressCixi · 22/12/2021 18:02

@ArabellaScott

I'm just going to refer back to the NHS quote there, which I think is probably most apt:

'Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.'

Oh, yes I agree with that 100%, which is why If I were the OP, i would delete the statement:

adults with pre-pubescent brains stuck in a holding pattern of behaviours that do not align with their biological age

Because there’s no solid evidence to back this up and so comes from a place of fear or discrimination. Neither is good, and OP will be accused of the latter.

Manderleyagain · 22/12/2021 19:13

I wonder if the section on trans women and agp fits in a letter to this organisation? Obviously to us it is relevant as part of the context. There is so much that could be included, but I would focus on the issues that are relevant to midwives who care for women who give birth (however they identify). The reader won't understand the reference to agp and sexual fetish, and will just take it to be inflammatory. You can't fully contextualise it in this letter and it isn't directly relevant to maternity & birth etc.
Agree with others who say it needs some purpose. Are you hoping they will publish it? Maybe pose some questions that readers should consider?
I also haven't read the inclusivity statement or the article mentioned.
There is someone who is (or was?) high up in the arm who is vocally gc. I can find out the name if you haven't heard.
I hope you do send it.

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2021 19:38

Agree, Empress - that's why I suggested OP struck out the last para!

EmpressCixi · 22/12/2021 20:02

@ArabellaScott

Agree, Empress - that's why I suggested OP struck out the last para!
Yes, see that now. I think in these contentious times where even if you are protected by law for standing up for the reality of two sexes, you can still be wrongfully dismissed from your job for expressing the things in the OPs letter.

If her trust catch wind of it, they can make up a reason to give her the sack or blacklist her and then she has have to have thousands of ££££ to prove it was a wrongful dismissal/black listing. Regular hardworking women don’t have that kind of money just sitting in a bank account.

So OP still needs to be careful and keep it short and logical, irrefutable and impersonal. I liked your deletions because it achieve those goals.

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