Maureen Lipman says cancel culture could destroy comedy

[ArabellaScott]

Article on how 'cancel culture' is affecting comedy. Mentions Dave Chapelle, JK Rowling and others. Some pertinent points:

'nearly a third (29%) of people who hold gender critical views said they always or mostly don't say what they really think when they are talking about this controversial topic.'

No shit.

It would have been interesting to see how many people polled hold those views.

Yeah, I don't honestly know in that circumstance. I think probably he would argue that the context was important - a comedy show, she was heckling (I think?) and he was responding as a comedian, in his comic persona.

I personally think he was just being a nasty abusive shithead. But I'm not sure how I would prove that.

Again, with causing fear and alarm... whenever we try to legislate speech based on people's feelings or reactions I think it's going to be very difficult. Because then someone could say they felt scared and alarmed by me saying I don't believe in gender, for example. How could I prove I wasn't intending to frighten them and didn't mean my words as a threat? I'm not sure I necessarily could if the underlying principle to the law was that speech shouldn't cause fear or alarm.

I think we do have a law about incitement to violence, and I think you could make a case that Boyle's speech would fall under that. I think incitement is probably a good limit, although obviously still not easy to prove one way or the other in many cases.

Also is there a law on verbal assault? That might be another way of looking at it. If someone screams abuse at me in the street, are they breaking a law? If they are, I would think Boyle was also in that instance.

@Mouseonmychair

Now you know how Jim Davidson has been treated. Cancel culture is bowing down to woke, feminism was woke at one point and benefitted from cancelling comedy seem as misogynistic and now there is a different version of woke it isn't quite so happy.

I’m not sure this is true.

It was only a few years ago comedians were falling over themselves to defend rape jokes as nothing should be off limits. Russel Kane was on the news yesterday explaining all the laddish humour was just irony.

HRA:

Article 10 Freedom of expression

1Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This Article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.

2The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

I think the qualifying part 2 there covers quite a lot.

'Under section 18 of the POA it is a criminal offence to use threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour'

From this useful article: www.lawble.co.uk/freedom-of-speech/

Oh yes that part 2 leaves a lot open to interpretation!

So it could potentially be a public order offence (is that what POA refers to?) to abuse/insult a member of the public a la Boyle? But then I suppose there is also a question of how far you can apply that to artistic productions such as comedy shows. It would also be open to abuse in that case - e.g. a tirade against Boris could be breaking the law in that case? I assume that's why public order offences don't tend to be used in those situations.

I think it's really tricky because artists do need to be able to say things in extreme and offensive ways sometimes. They need the freedom to be able to do that, even if they don't choose to. So my general principle would be: don't incite violence or make credible threats to individuals, otherwise anything goes. Then it's down to my choice which artists I choose to support, engage with etc.

What FB said was disgusting but I do think the context matters. It doesn't make it any less disgusting to me (and I do think he crossed a line and went beyond just exercising his free speech), but it does make me think there's probably nothing to be done about it that would be both effective and not have unintended consequences.

I suppose it comes down to the thing that Voltaire apparently didn't say: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. Certainly wouldn't go as far as dying for FB but in general I feel that the best way to defend my own freedom of speech is to defend it for everyone.

I definitely don't disagree that it's complicated though, and there are some blurred lines for sure.

I loved Andrew Doyle's book on free speech. I think he makes very strong arguments in favour.

Ooh, I didn't know Doyle had a book on free speech. Will seek it out.

And there's another one, actually, speaking of comics:

www.spiked-online.com/2021/01/01/ignore-the-gaslighting-cancel-culture-is-real/

• POA = Public Order Act (POA) 1986 (as amended)

@ArabellaScott

I do lean that way, beastly.

But I suppose in this instance, I'm thinking the issue is a man saying to a woman 'I will abuse you'? That's a threat, surely? It's not about causing offence, but about causing fear and alarm.

There is a kind of humour, I suppose a kind of absurdism really, where someone says something that is just so completely crazy and out of line that it is funny. Because you know that it's not what they really think, although it may be what others think.

It has a shock factor but on rare occasions it can be quite offensive, or in more intimate settings maybe.

But it is hard to do well, easy to get wrong, and also if it is done often it stops working.

Some comedians overuse this kind of thing, it's even their main type of joke. I would say in most cases it's meant to be a joke rather than serious, the real issue is they aren't clever enough to come up with anything else.

I am not sure in this case but my understanding is that in most places, that kind of paragraph about protecting the public has a very high bar. Like, you can ask questions about vaccinations on the radio, you can't tell people doctors are recommending eating rat poison instead of getting vaccinated.

@Mouseonmychair

Now you know how Jim Davidson has been treated. Cancel culture is bowing down to woke, feminism was woke at one point and benefitted from cancelling comedy seem as misogynistic and now there is a different version of woke it isn't quite so happy.

How has Jim Davidson been treated?

Used to watch big break I think he said something I'll Google.

On big break if course at the time it was all good clean family entertainment. (Not sure if I missed things that would be yikes now!).

Certainly his shows had v different content.

Imo context is important.

Mainstream viewing esp primetime etc.
Different obv to ticketed things- own shows, comedy clubs etc.

Jim Davidson on TV doing family suitable.
Jim Davidson doing own shows, nights in venues where clientele like him.
I'm fine with that tbh.

Terrestrial TV IE the 5 before streaming, middle of night again less fussed.

Popular/ older family/ stand up show heavily promoted on at eg 9, 10.
Nah.

Hiring people who have said/ done awful shit. Hired to present friendly safe family TV? Esp if BBC we pay.
I really think that's shit. There are loads of presenters to choose from!

Oh and if Jim Davidson, don't know if still touring/ appearing around country, I'll cross my fingers for you he is Mouseonmychair.

I don't think you need to worry about him.

And tbh surely it's better for both him, and audience, if audience have tickets as like his stuff, and he will have friendly laughing crowd big appluase etc.

Just looking Jim d.

First up
'. He also developed adult pantomime shows such as Boobs in the Wood and Sinderella.'

😂😂😂😂

Right then that sets the scene for results of further googling

Oooh to Jim fan upthread, RESULT!! Tickets on sale up to spring 22!

www.jimdavidson.org.uk/tour-dates/

Oh lol-

Jim D styles himself as 'the people's comedian' that's really tickled me!

Ok wiki has quite a few incidents.

The one that I assume was a big reason he haemorrhaged tv work (I mean I don't remember seeing him after big break but did do stuff).

Was thing on hell's kitchen 07 and another contestant was Brian Dowling.

Is that the thing you were referring to mouse? I think prob not as you mentioned feminists, was it something more big break era?

'On Hell's Kitchen Mr Dowling burst into tears as the former host of The Generation Game Mr Davidson ranted at him: "Go on. You play the whole homophobic card you are a f disgrace." This followed an earlier row on the show which had seen Mr Davidson walk up to Mr Dowling and singer Paul Young in the kitchen and referred to a "look" he thought he had been given by a table of diners. Scroll down for more {3} He said: "Why do shirt lifters pull that same face?" Mr Dowling had asked him not to use the words "shirt lifter" because he found it "really rude". But the stand-up comedian retorted: "I don't care. Gay men have the same look - some gay men have the same look" The reality star turned TV presenter asked Mr Davidson if he had that look. Mr Davidson replied: "No only when you put it on... it's a sort of preen'

I didn't know Jim did generation game 95-02!

I'm not sure when feminists did something that made not sure what happen to his career?

Mouse mouse! Need more info.
Can't find anything about feminists JD axed... Did scroll past a quote in interview.
'women? Just like them'.
That's hardly news though!

Don't like them! Obv.

beastlyslumber I think on balance I would rather have my freedom of speech and pay the price of having others who I find hateful also having freedom of speech. If their speech is curtailed, I know mine will be too. At least if I have freedom of speech I can argue against those people and for my own side.

Well put, thats an excellent summary.

@CheeseMmmm

Google jester has s lot.

They mention a handful jesters other countries who could get away with joking about political stuff/noble people etc.

UK specifically mention a couple iirc.

Wiki I know also not definitive, can you point me to more info? Cos the general picture painted is more what I thought.
For eg-

'A jester, court jester, or fool'

'This modern term derives from the older form gestour, or jestour, originally from Anglo-Norman (French) meaning storyteller or minstrel. Other earlier terms included fol, disour, buffoon, and bourder.'
(Dunno what all mean but buffoon I get!).

'Jeffrey Hudson had the title of Royal Dwarf because he was short of stature. One of his jests was to be presented hidden in a giant pie from which he would leap out.'

'Scholar David Carlyon has cast doubt on the "daring political jester", calling historical tales "apocryphal", and concluding that "popular culture embraces a sentimental image of the clown; writers reproduce that sentimentality in the jester, and academics in the Trickster", but it "falters as analysis".'

I watched this video a few days ago. Really interesting.

I am an amateur stand up. The world of comedy has been moving towards less offensive for a few years now and I think that's no bad thing.

Yes and as a result, a lot of comedy and stand up is now mellow and boring and not funny at all. You see the comments on social media saying why aren't comedians funny anymore!

I prefer American comedians who are still allowed to push the boat a bit. Used to watch Live at the Apollo many years ago. Now I don't even think about watching it, not funny.

I think strangely that comedy is a bit like porn in the sense that, if isn't a bit a taboo, it loses the ability to metaphorically 'turn you on'

@DysonSphere

I am an amateur stand up. The world of comedy has been moving towards less offensive for a few years now and I think that's no bad thing.

Yes and as a result, a lot of comedy and stand up is now mellow and boring and not funny at all. You see the comments on social media saying why aren't comedians funny anymore!

I prefer American comedians who are still allowed to push the boat a bit. Used to watch Live at the Apollo many years ago. Now I don't even think about watching it, not funny.

I think strangely that comedy is a bit like porn in the sense that, if isn't a bit a taboo, it loses the ability to metaphorically 'turn you on'

Yes, of course it does.

Incongruity of some kind tends to be behind what we find funny. There are different ways to do that, but a significant one is a true/not true incongruity, which can be correspond with a taboo/allowed incongruity. When you put those four together it can be not just funny, but very insightful, which is the type of comedy a lot of people like.

But if there is no taboo, it can't work.

You've put it very well @SantaClawsServiette