Children and "gender" help

[Teaandcakeordeath83]

Hi. I have three young children and I am increasingly worried about the whole gender/ sex debate and the effect it is having on young lives alongside the impact it is having on women's rights.

My children are all in infants or younger so obviously don't have access to social media or have much knowledge really about the whole gender debate but from these threads I see that awareness and access seems to creep in during juniors and definitely by seniors. There's children in my dd1s class who watch tictoc videos already (I often get hassled by dd1 for tictoc but that'll be over my dead body at this age!) and a local school has a trans child in juniors.....

I have two girls and a boy. When do you start talking about sex/ gender/ bodies/ feminism? How- whilst keeping it age appropriate? How do you stop them from being sucked into tictoc and Reddit?

Someone will be along in a minute with helpful advice but in the meantime have a look at Transgender Trend, Safe Schools Alliance and I think the other one is Our Duty

They're never too young to talk in an age appropriate way about the simple facts of sexed bodies and simple ideas about feminism. Eg there's no such thing as boys toys/girls toys/activities/sports, colours are for everyone not just pink=girl, blue=boy. Stuff about consent at a very simple level, ie no means no in any context. If someone is physically interacting with them and they don't like it then the other person should stop. Then there's modelling behaviour yourself at home, if you have an opposite sex partner don't fall into stereotyped roles at home without thinking about it.

Then just generally encourage rational discussion and critical thinking.

I agree, age appropriate talk about sexed bodies, penis = boy and vulva = girl but clothes, games, toys, activities someone likes has no impact on sex and though many girls seem to like x there will be lots of girls who don’t etc

Also no smart phone until secondary and then use parental controls to prevent social media. Having learned lessons with my oldest the next one doesn’t have Tiktok, Instagram or WhatsApp. I caved on Snapchat but wouldn’t again. Yes it does mean some friendships don’t work out as a result. My observation is that it has turned out to be the friendships which I would find quite unhelpful which haven’t worked out. Good friends aren’t so superficial as to judge other children on what social media they are allowed.

This wasn’t even a thing in Junior schools pre pandemic from my experience- it has grown fast. Doesn’t seem to be in infants/primary in my area. I do think social media has a lot to do with it. Social media is harmful to children for reasons of safeguarding, dangerous ideologies, eating disorders, low self esteem and the compulsive nature of it. Children will absorb values from social media which may not reflect the values of their parents, family or culture. I am sure that social media culture such as being hyper judgmental, excising anyone with different opinions, ruthless banning, blocking and deleting manifests as intolerance for those with different opinions in real life and the current problems with cancel culture. Equally harmful to children is all the things they stop doing when they are focusing on social media.

You stop children being sucked into tiktok and Reddit by making good use of parental controls, starting as you mean to go on with monitoring and restrictions on screen time, modelling good phone hygiene yourself, for example, leaving phones downstairs over night, not letting social media become addictive for you, whatever you think is a healthy way of managing your phone use.

It can also help to talk to your children about the compulsive nature of social media platforms and how hard people find it to put their phones down and do something else, how social media can make people feel bad about themselves sometimes, how people can sometimes see really upsetting things accidentally and how bad people can use it to frighten or hurt others, so that children understand that you are choosing to protect them by not letting them have it rather than just ruining their fun.

The pressures just keep moving younger and younger. My oldest didn’t really know what social media was until secondary school my youngest heard about it from friends who used it probably in year 5 or 6. Now children are hearing about friends using it in infants. Our children are all still Guinea pigs with this technology. I very much doubt any parents regret keeping their children off social media for as long as possible! Until 16 if you can manage it. I do think at some point the age limit for all platforms will be raised to 16.

I agree with the above. Never too young to talk about it in an age appropriate way. The more you discuss it in casual conversation (avoiding sitting down for a serious talk or sounding embarrassed or serious about it) the more likely they are to open up to you about things they might see or hear.

Although personally I allow WhatsApp from Y7 as its important for friendships (and homework questions!).

No advice but just wanted to say I feel exactly the same way too OP. I’m wondering (and worried) about when and if their school will introduce them to the whole trans thing. I think there’s a lot of nonsense out there that’s confusing children from a young age and it’s ruining lives

I tell them that children are two sexes. Anything else is ideology.

I didn't need to tell my DC there are two sexes. When I explained what TRAs believe they thought it was a joke and that no one could really actually believe you can change sex whenever you feel like it.

Agree with all of the above.

A small addition; I also think a background of being immersed in and knowing about natural history and biology can be really helpful.

Get out into nature as much as possible, encourage watching nature programmes, talk about how life evolved etc. Observe bugs, grow poppies and collect the seed, caterpillars etc, talk about reproduction from that point of view.

Being into dinosaurs and fossils is actually really useful here! Museums, nature parks etc.

Not only is it healthy for kids to just be outside as much as possible and is proven to help teens and mood, I do think having as secure background understanding of how all life and biology works really helps. Then it's fairly obvious sex is immutable.

There's also the necessary added bonus of then understanding about the impact of humans on the environment etc.

This may be simplistic but maybe it can help introduce discussion

twitter.com/ptelephant/status/1472260270567436294?s=21

Agree with @WarriorN
Biology and nature, being outside as much as possible, staying off screens will all help your children's healthy development.

I haven't read Rachel Romney's book as I don't have young children but it may be a good one to read to your children.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/My-Body-Me-Rachel-Rooney/dp/1527251543/ref=sr11_1?crid=XL55M5OIWVY4&keywords=rachel+rooney+my+body+is+me&qid=1639903104&sprefix=Rachel+rooney%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-1

I concentrated on toys, yes, but also a lot on clothes and hairstyles as so much of social media gender focuses on those. My DS is very clear that men and boys can wear skirts, for example. I’ve also shown him loads of photos of men with long hair and hair in pony-tails and buns. This was because of something he once came home from school saying.

Even in the lower end of primary school, children still pick up messages about gender even when it’s unrelated to trans aspects. So, making sure your DC understand that gender stereotypes are silly and regressive is a good first step. It’s harder then for the gender woo to get in when they’re older because it seems exactly what it is.

I think social media in general isn’t beneficial for children so I’m aiming to limit that as much as possible.

Slightly off topic, but I grew up in the 60's/70's and was lucky to live on a farm, immersed in pets and ponies. My clothes were mainly pass downs from older sisters. But I lived in trousers (not always jeans) and welly boots or shorts and welly boots in summer. The only time I ever wore a dress or skirt was school or parties.

I have recently noticed, and been rather surprised, on some tv programmes about farming life that young daughters who have featured, joining in with farm work, are dressed in skirts or dresses and welly boots. Of course they are free to dress as they please but I find it odd, I really do. Growing up on a farm, being outside but wearing impractical clothing. I can't help wondering where the influence is coming from whether it's the parent buying the clothes or the child's choice.

Agree fanny, I spent half my childhood in the countryside. It was the 90s but my teen peers and I lived in Levi's from the local farm store, dms and checked shirts. Boys and girls. I liked the odd grunge flowing top or culottes but it was actually seen as more cool to be in practical clothes!

I also found it really hard going to university and being around so many who were so into fashion, and that was pre online influences.

I meant to add the all important word "evolution" in my above post.

When you understand evolution you understand sexual reproduction and vice versa.

It's tricky as while I think it's important for girls to have single sex spaces, in my son's Cubs they're all so fab and practical and the leaders are brilliant, I can see why it's a good environment for girls to be in.

@Teaandcakeordeath83

Hi. I have three young children and I am increasingly worried about the whole gender/ sex debate and the effect it is having on young lives alongside the impact it is having on women's rights.

My children are all in infants or younger so obviously don't have access to social media or have much knowledge really about the whole gender debate but from these threads I see that awareness and access seems to creep in during juniors and definitely by seniors. There's children in my dd1s class who watch tictoc videos already (I often get hassled by dd1 for tictoc but that'll be over my dead body at this age!) and a local school has a trans child in juniors.....

I have two girls and a boy. When do you start talking about sex/ gender/ bodies/ feminism? How- whilst keeping it age appropriate? How do you stop them from being sucked into tictoc and Reddit?

is this a class thing?

I'm common as muck and my kid started secondary this year, theres absolutely none of it there at all and I think the kids would tell the teaches to sod off if they started pushing it, its a rough school full of proud black girls who dont take any poo poo.

Yes it definitely is a class thing. I know that from my children’s friends. Those in top sets and from parts of the catchment with more expensive houses are much more likely to be full on into gender identities and queerness. They understand very little of what is actually about, have no idea who Judith Butler is etc. Lower sets and less expensive areas have no interest in it and little patience for it.

It's a "luxury belief" isn't it VelvetChairGirl & Daisies? The focus of so many wasted hours by the generally privileged who don't need to focus on the reality that applies to so many - poverty, discrimination, disability, poor housing etc. For adults it's a way for white middle aged men to centre themselves as "themostoppressedever" and for many children who feel overlooked / alienated, it's a way of getting uncritical attention.

If it didn't have so many catastrophic negative impacts on children, this would just be another harmless teenage fad. But sadly some dangerous adults are leading this and the lifelong consequences for many children will be dreadful.

We've all now got to be that parent and protect our children.

Age appropriate discussions of body parts, sex etc. Use proper terminology and base on facts not feelings.

Zero stereotyping in the home - anyone can wear any colours, play with any toys, dabble with your makeup. Everyone can help with simple chores. Lead by example with you and your partner not falling into stereotyped roles, even accidentally. So you can change light bulbs and fix the WiFi and your DP can organise play dates and bake birthday cakes.

Only age appropriate social media, and if your kids are young then you monitor closely.

Avoid messages to be kind , instead reinforce personal boundaries and having respect for yourself and for others.

Let kids be kids without judgement or celebration of difference. Don't compare your DC to each other or to anyone else, let them enjoy being themselves.

Gender is just a social construct and not something that needs to be taught at all. If you get questions you can answer them honestly in an age appropriate manner.

I don't think feminism really needs to be taught either if everything else is in place.

I agree except I still think that teaching kindness to both sexes is important. Kindness doesn't mean not having boundaries though.

See I think the Be Kind movement has been extremely damaging for women and is now used when we're expected to stand aside and make room for whoever wants to trample all over us.

Be supportive to those who support you, be respectful of those who respect you. But be kind is often suggested in the face of anything but reciprocal kindness, more like be quiet and don't make a fuss.

MrsOvertonsWindow definitely a luxury belief.

I agree about taking care with messages to be kind. It needs to go hand in hand with respect and boundaries.

For example if I hear from child a “child b won’t play with me” I tend to say something like “oh you must feel disappointed about that but if child b doesn’t want to play with you at the moment let’s see if there is someone else to play with or something you and I can do together” instead of “child b be kind and play with child a”

One should always teach kindness toward people who are weaker or more vulnerable than oneself.
That does not include overentitled males trying to trample women’s boundaries and ignore children’s safeguarding.