Carole Hooven and testosterone on The Spark on Radio 4

[nauticant]

Just about to start with Helen Lewis. Should be interesting.

For anyone interested, it moves onto the significance of sex differences in the final third of the programme.

Carole Hooven discusses her disagreements with Cordelia Fine. Hooven says she's science first, non-political, and academic freedom is vital. "We need to have clear conversations about the science."

She's amazing!

An interesting listen. She is very willing to reach across the divides but is resolute on the fact that there are simply two sexes.

"Don't cofuse variations within a sex that there are only two sexes."

Her final word on sex: "Ultimately it is the body plan for the gametes."

Just caught the end of this. She was very good. Clear, authoritative and articulate.

It was excellent, but I didn't understand the point she made about expecting to make an anti-feminist point when she wrote her book.

I will listen to this. Am reading Cordelia Fine at the moment and it is very good but really annoyed me that she talks about their being more than two sexes. No, there are not.

Really? I did start on one of her books a year or so back but I was expecting it to be more driven by the science while to my taste it had too much of a political slant mixed in. I decided it wasn't for me.

She was describing the other combinations of chromosomes (eg xxy) as other sexes. (Mind you, I read that bit ages ago now so I hope I am remembering correctly - I certainly remember feeling it was misleading. It is a short book so I could probably just go back and check!) The book I am reading is Testosterone Rex, which has really thought provoking ideas, studies and science, but I don't necessarily agree with her conclusions.

She was very balanced but I felt sorry for her when she was asked about her son and she sounded upset at the idea of him feeling being male made him toxic (can't remember how she expressed it but I think that was the point.)

Listened to this in the car. I thought it was very good. She was clear that there were only two sexes with variations within each.
A lot of emphasis on following the science to support theories and being careful when extrapolating from non human mamals to make judgements about human behaviours. Discussed Trans and the differences between sex and gender socialinaction. Respectful and clear.
Very clear on the problem of male aggression and dealt confidently with NAMALT. Will listen again as there was a lot in this programme.

That should be 'socialisation' not social inaction'

Just bumping so more listen. It has taken a few years, but the clearest voices are coming into the mainstream and are aware of pitfalls or the what-aboutery that took energy and focus away.
Along with a Rosie Kay’s unherd piece on the same day. And fact that neither really want to discuss in terms set out by others but simply want to pursue their scientific and artistic paths

Apologies - I started a thread after not scrolling down far enough. Will copy my comments and then ask fot mine to be deleted

My 2p worth!

The evolutionary biologist Carole Hooven was interviewed by Helen Lewis for her programme The Spark:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0012fwc

Hooven is a Harvard professor who wrote a book about testosterone. She is firmly believes in sex differences between men and women.

She was incredibly good at getting her points across. What I found helpful was making me feel I understood why:

1. It's right to focus on testosterone. Of course not all men are affected negatively but the individual and societal effects of those who are are considerable.

2. Sex is dyadic - those who argue that there are many sexes are focussing on other secondary characteristics which are more variable

It sounds a bit simplistic and as if I didn't understand the basics before listening. It wasn't that. It was just that she was so eloquent. She was also firm that she likes to use preferred pronouns and is concerned about inequality but that this should not influence acceptance of biology.

Worth a listen I thought!

It was excellent, I thought.

I sat up and took notice of this when driving today as I'm in the middle of her interview on Bai Weiss's 'Honestly' podcast - that is a longer interview and was posted on 29th July if you want to find it (can't link, in phone, am inept).

I thought she was excellent. Balanced, clear and fair.

*Bari Wiess