Poll - Most Scots do NOT support 'self ID'

[ArabellaScott]

New poll from Murray Blackburn Mackenzie shows that 53% of Scots think that a change of 'gender' shoudl require doctor's involvement. This includes people who are supportive of expression of gender identity.

Plenty of data here, survey of over 1,000 adults.

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2021/12/14/polling-shows-being-supportive-of-transgender-self-expression-is-not-the-same-as-supporting-self-declaration-for-legal-gender-recognition/

Isn't it too late though?
I thought the majority of MSPs were in favour so it is to be a shoe in.

I don't know, Linguini. The Conservatives are definitely not in favour, but of course SNP+Greens are pro self ID. I believe there is to be debate in the Scottish parliament, perhaps early in the new year?

Part of it might be a hedge against the future in which people claim that such a significant change went through on the basis of widespread popular support with almost nobody being opposed.

Look at the arguments against the GRA 2004 presented in debates in Parliament. They're gold in terms of showing that much of the trans activist interpretations of what happened and why are not correct.

Some of this is going to be a very long game indeed.

It's important because the ScotGov are v invested in the narrative of no big deal, not contraversial, most people don't have a problem with it.

It's a silencing tactic.

Also, SNP voters are an incredibly broad church. They hold together because of independence, but push the right leaning ones far enough and it's not a big leap for them to Tory.

I'm left leaning SNP and pro independence but not at any cost. They've lost my vote although that leaves me politically homeless.

If Labour by some miracle came to their senses I'd vote for them without hesitation.

At what point can we use Article 17 of the European Convention on Human Rights?
It prohibits The State or individuals using the guise of human rights to remove the human rights of others, to prevent totalitarian movements undermining democracy.

@Thelnebriati

At what point can we use Article 17 of the European Convention on Human Rights? It prohibits The State or individuals using the guise of human rights to remove the human rights of others, to prevent totalitarian movements undermining democracy.

In 5, 4, 3...

using the guise of human rights to remove the human rights of others

yes, that's exactly what is happening.

I'm still recovering from the shock that women in jail have fewer rights than prisoners of war because the Geneva Convention says female prisoners are to be kept apart from males. Unlike in my local jail. It makes me feel ill.

@ditalini

It's important because the ScotGov are v invested in the narrative of no big deal, not contraversial, most people don't have a problem with it.

It's a silencing tactic.

Also, SNP voters are an incredibly broad church. They hold together because of independence, but push the right leaning ones far enough and it's not a big leap for them to Tory.

I'm left leaning SNP and pro independence but not at any cost. They've lost my vote although that leaves me politically homeless.

If Labour by some miracle came to their senses I'd vote for them without hesitation.

Me too

It was 53% said people should need doctors approval to have their gender legally recognised as different to their biological sex and 27% not. 20% don't know. I am not sure which I would answer as I don't think gender should be legally recognised other than as a belief system and people''s sex should be paramount.

I agree, Lovely.

As far as the purpose of this survey, MBM stated:

''We were interested in how public opinion on GRA reform related to wider public attitudes towards transgender self-expression, and whether disagreement with a self-declaration model, such as that proposed by the Scottish Government, is indicative of ‘anti-trans’ attitudes, as some supporters of reform have claim'

The two questions were whether people supported people's right to freely express their transgender identity (most did)

and whether people supported self ID (most didn't).

@Thelnebriati

At what point can we use Article 17 of the European Convention on Human Rights? It prohibits The State or individuals using the guise of human rights to remove the human rights of others, to prevent totalitarian movements undermining democracy.

The Scottish parliament does not have the authority to legislate in breach of the ECHR

ArabellaScott it still pushes people towards admitting a belief system should be allowed to overrule biological fact. A bit like asking: do you think people should be allowed to believe in Christianity? Do you think all children in schools should be required to attend chapel for communion once a week or do you think having communion in assembly is enough?

Yes, I am in full agreement with you, Lovely. But I suspect this is preparing the ground for larger arguments? We are starting with a populace with little knowledge of the issues and facts involved. The purpose of this study is to show the argument that anybody who opposes self ID is 'anti trans' up as untrue. At least, that's my understanding.

I'm a bit disappointed that it's as low as 53% but as you say, this is not on the radar of many people. Hopefully, more sunlight will bump the figures up a bit.

I am too lazy to read through the pdf. Were the surveyed people aware of the fact the question was not in relation to "post-operative transsexuals" only?
Because if the vast majority of the public assumes that's who we're talking about then they may well think a doctor's note is overkill.

FlyingOink no it asked you which statement you most closely agreed with - self ID or medical diagnosis for legal recognition of a gender different to your birth sex. I don't agree with either so would probably forced to 'don't know'. There was nothing about the implications of this.

Question as it was posed:

'A person who has their gender legally recognised as different from their biological sex is entitled to a replacement birth certificate which
displays their new ‘legal’ sex, and to be treated as that sex for most purposes. They are covered by strict legal protections which mean
employers and other organisations cannot disclose their biological sex in most circumstances. Which of the following statements is closest to
your view?

• People should need to obtain a doctor’s approval before having their gender legally recognised as different to their biological sex.
• People should not need to obtain a doctor’s approval before having their gender legally recognised as different to their biological sex.'

• or 'don't know'

So some respondents could have assumed the individual was post-operative, I guess.

The question assumes the respondent knows that "A person who has their gender legally recognised as different from their biological sex" is someone who may not have had any medical or surgical treatment.

So some people might be seeing "a doctor's approval" as a perhaps unnecessary final hurdle

Seems as though it perhaps could have been worded better

Perhaps, Franca. It was commissioned by MBM and carried out by Survation.