feel like I’m turning into an anti-marriage feminist

[NewFem]

So, I’m new to feminism but I’ve been having some thoughts about marriage and how it relates to women as a whole.

Marriage, I think, turns women against each other. Everything from weddings (making other women feel bad by not choosing them to be your bridesmaid for some nonsensical reason), to marital life itself is about women competing with each other and using their marital status (i.e. their relationship with a man) to one up another woman. Married women are seen and treated better than single women societally. They are showered with gifts for their wedding, for example and everyone must stop and celebrate their special day. When a woman gets married, all other women are expected to uplift her for finding a man in her life.

Whereas you rarely see any of the above I mentioned between married men and single men. Married men’s title remains Mr just like single men, nearly all married men keep their last name. Married women are distinguished above single women.

Overall I feel like marriage is a tool that brings divide amongst women and the reason why you see so many women aspiring for marriage or refusing to let go of this patriarchal institution is because of the elevated status that marriage gives them over other women. There’s no other patriarchal creation that I can think of that women - including some who call themselves feminists - generally defend so strongly. I believe the status it gives them over other women is the reason why.

Thoughts?

I think this needs to be taught to children (especially girls) - what you're risking if you give up your job to have kids.

But I have to say that this:

There’s no rule that states that women have to be the ones that give up their careers to raise children. Fathers can easily do that too.

Whilst being true, mixes up what we are working towards, with what we have to deal with now. Yes, that is where we should be, but the reality is at the moment that it's nearly always the woman that gives up and cuts back following children.

I think that actually, there needs to be more talk of marriage as a contract - specifying terms, and then enforcing them during the marriage, and potentially after breakup.

Women going into things blinded by love without looking at worst case scenarios, and the system happily screwing them over is the problem with marriage.

There literally are no guarantees in life - apart from death and taxes

The rest is up to us.

Snap YetAnotherSpart. I totally agree.

Women going into things blinded by love without looking at worst case scenarios, and the system happily screwing them over is the problem with marriage

I think that an awful lot of sex-role stereotyping is caught up in the word 'wife'. I've never desired to be a 'wife'. I do have a partner who for much of the time we have been together has earned significantly more than me (he still does). Not marrying him, I think, gave me more opportunity to put my career and financial interests first in light of a lot of social pressure to do otherwise. If I'd have had the social role of 'wife' it would have been far harder to have resisted those who told me I was mad for not accepting his breadwinner role, mean for not moving to be with him or wrong for not being the corporate wife or so on.

As they used to say 'it all starts when you sink into his arms and it ends with your arms in his sink'.

Personally I don’t think that it’s marriage that’s the problem. Having two incomes and the support of another person is really a good way of gaining a secure future and a good environment to raise children if that’s what you want. I also don’t think I could find the happiness I have now through a series of casual relationships.

For me the problem issues are much more to do with the societal expectations of motherhood vs fatherhood.

How do we square economic independence with a desire to raise your own child, or even to cut down your working hours to spend time with them?

I don't see how we can.

Before I had a child, I had no idea how strongly I would want to be with them. It blew me away. It felt primal. We found a compromise and muddled through, as most of us do, but I have never found a satisfactory answer to this conundrum from feminism, certainly not from the first feminists I hung out with who were second wavers and treated mothers with little short of contempt.

This is the first feminist space I have found where anyone gets this.

I think it needs to be contractual - marriage legally has moved onto no spousal maintenance, or for a short term while the woman gets a job, rather than that the husband (or ex-husband) would continue to support the woman.

Societally however, women haven't caught up, they don't realise that when they put themselves on the backburner for kids/family that they are risking everything - that they will be cast adrift and expected to pick up where they left off up to 20 years ago should a marriage fail. I think it needs to be written in the contract, that the contract needs to be renewed/amended when things change - eg. children, giving up work. It needs to be specified that the deal is, 'I give up work to support the family, and in return you are bound to make up the difference in what I would have earned' and that isn't a simple thing - it's a complex negotiation - and I think it needs to be done up front so everyone is walking into it with their eyes open.

I thank my lucky stars that I am fundamentally stubborn and managed to freelance whilst having the kids, giving me the freedom to tell ex to take a hike when the depths of his betrayal became clear (even beyond his general lack of support/care during the relationship which I excused). My sister hasn't managed this, and struggles to put petrol in the car some weeks as a consequence, she's still dependant on her ex, because she has to be financially.

@Floisme

How do we square economic independence with a desire to raise your own child, or even to cut down your working hours to spend time with them?

I don't see how we can.

Before I had a child, I had no idea how strongly I would want to be with them. It blew me away. It felt primal. We found a compromise and muddled through, as most of us do, but I have never found a satisfactory answer to this conundrum from feminism, certainly not from the first feminists I hung out with who were second wavers and treated mothers with little short of contempt.

This is the first feminist space I have found where anyone gets this.

This

I wanted to be with/available to my children full time while they were young.

It is great to have choices. Even better to explore the most effective and useful ways of fulfilling those choices.

I am not and never have been married. When I was younger I was thinking of feminist theory rather than practical realities.

@NewFem

So, I’m new to feminism but I’ve been having some thoughts about marriage and how it relates to women as a whole.

Marriage, I think, turns women against each other. Everything from weddings (making other women feel bad by not choosing them to be your bridesmaid for some nonsensical reason), to marital life itself is about women competing with each other and using their marital status (i.e. their relationship with a man) to one up another woman. Married women are seen and treated better than single women societally. They are showered with gifts for their wedding, for example and everyone must stop and celebrate their special day. When a woman gets married, all other women are expected to uplift her for finding a man in her life.

Whereas you rarely see any of the above I mentioned between married men and single men. Married men’s title remains Mr just like single men, nearly all married men keep their last name. Married women are distinguished above single women.

Overall I feel like marriage is a tool that brings divide amongst women and the reason why you see so many women aspiring for marriage or refusing to let go of this patriarchal institution is because of the elevated status that marriage gives them over other women. There’s no other patriarchal creation that I can think of that women - including some who call themselves feminists - generally defend so strongly. I believe the status it gives them over other women is the reason why.

Thoughts?

I think you're over thinking it.

Overall I feel like marriage is a tool that brings divide amongst women and the reason why you see so many women aspiring for marriage or refusing to let go of this patriarchal institution is because of the elevated status that marriage gives them over other women. There’s no other patriarchal creation that I can think of that women - including some who call themselves feminists - generally defend so strongly. I believe the status it gives them over other women is the reason why

I think you are bang on right OP.

I think it's having children, rather than marriage, that divides women. I was late to motherhood so I've been on both sides of the schism.

@Floisme

I think it's having children, rather than marriage, that divides women. I was late to motherhood so I've been on both sides of the schism.

I think there’s a lot of truth in that. For me, the absolute key is financial equality, however capitalist and unromantic that sounds. A relationship has to be equal to work, and similar independent incomes is part of that in the society we’re operating in, whether you like it or not. I couldn’t see a way to maintain equality without my own income, and I think it’s a thankless and hard to win battle to combine this with motherhood, so I chose not to have children. I get that not every woman is prepared to make that choice, and I don’t think we should have to, but I haven’t seen a solution that actually works easily. Not without much harder work than I’m prepared to put in.

It’s all about showing off to others that you’ve been picked by a man and that a man finds you more desirable (sexually attractive) than other women that drives most of the marital desire.

Have you been watching the Bridget Jones' films recently and taken the 'smug marrieds' thing a bit too much to heart?
Women aspire to marriage because they do not want to be lonely in life any more than men do.
I married my husband because he was my best friend and life partner. It had nothing to do with what other people thought whatsoever. I also think there is an anecdotal correlation between 'the less spent on the wedding, the longer the marriage'.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Quoting myself for a similar and yet different thread ...

Totally agree OP! I can't believe the number of women who give up their financial security so easily and think they will be 'saved' by marriage. They won't be. They would have been far better off making sure they kept their financial security and shared the domestic labour and childcare.

I have seen so many women with good jobs (or at least jobs) go all gooey and starry-eyed at the mere hint of a ring and frock and then put his career first (for example, give up their jobs to follow him for a career move that benefits him) to their own detriment. Then after they have taken a 'job to pay the bills' (so he can be the main breadwinner) they have children that they, not he, gives up her work for, or reduces her hours, or takes a low-paid job for the 'extras' ... and is then left high and dry when he fucks off for something younger and tighter.

He haggles for all he can get, she is left with a mortgage she can't afford without his wage and limited retirement income.

We should teach girls that financial independence is everything, that their income is as worthy as his and that knights in shining armour are often slimy toads (no disresect to toads).

I complete agree with this

I felt much the same way as you Boood .... until I didn't.

When I had a small child it was like a whole new side of me opening up. The desire to be with them was overwhelming and it was nothing to do with romance or being starry eyed - far more elemental than that. Although I never gave up work, I was grateful to have a partner who earned more than me so that I could cut down.

I'm not saying this happens to all mothers but it certainly happened to me and I cannot un-feel that. It is an inconvenient truth, and my biggest disappointment with feminism (and I may be wrong here) is that I have never seen it properly engage with it.

@Floisme The only way feminism can and does engage with this issue is to normalise that it could be either the mother or the father or both who have this Damascus moment when their child is born and to push for societal acceptance for flexibility at work for anyone who has a child.

I mean the aim of feminism should be to show children are not a woman’s burden if she doesn’t want it to be and not a ‘feminine’ thing for men to want to look after their children either.

@Floisme, I agree that it’s a really fundamental question that we haven’t managed to answer effectively. I think it’s too hard. It’s too hard for those of us who have already chosen to confront that and admit that there might have been a better way. For women yet to jump, it’s too hard to admit the likelihood that their partner will turn out to be one of the (vast?) majority who aren’t actually prepared to parent equally. Especially if they’re already in their 30s and they don’t have all the time in the world to start again. And it’s definitely not palatable to me to give any credence to the Kirstie Allsopp view that we should encourage women to have children very young and worry about everything else later.

There’s no rule that states that women have to be the ones that give up their careers to raise children. Fathers can easily do that too.

For a feminist board, there’re some really strange ideas about family life here.

Of course, there's no rule that women have to give up their career, and there are couples who negotiate so that the father takes on more of the childcare, especially if the woman has the higher paying job.

But children don't miraculously appear out of thin air. The latter stages of pregnancy can be difficult so women may have to stop working. It is perfectly reasonable for women to need time to recuperate from childbirth. Looking after a baby is also an intensive role.
The mother-baby bond is pretty strong among mammals and I've come across women who are genuinely surprised at how strong this bond is and how they wanted to be around to look after their baby instead of rushing off back to a stressful and maybe unfulfilling job (not everyone has the luxury of working their dream job).

This means it can easily be two or even three years before a woman gets back to working again, and a lot can happen in that time, such as other colleagues being promoted, not to mention the loss in earnings and pension payments. And if a couple decide to have more than one child, this adds even more years of being out of the job market.

Because women are the sex that actually bears children, and not men, there will always be this disparity on a population level. Some might call this a form of structural sexism or patriarchy or women being disadvantaged etc. I don't view it like that. To me, it's just a reflection of biological reality. Women will always be impacted in certain ways that won't affect men, simply because of our reproductive role. Those women who decide not to have children can escape this, but overall both women and men are deeply motivated to have families - else the human species would have automatically died out long ago!
It doesn't mean as a society we cannot implement policies to mitigate any negative consequences that can arise from this disparity. For example, I think any parent (and in most cases it will be mothers) who takes time off work to look after their young children should get pension contributions from the government to make up for the lack of earnings. They are doing a vital role and shouldn't be missing out on vital financial security in their old age because of it.

Just because some women feel able to get back to work quickly or they are highly skilled, doesn't mean all women who are mothers will feel able to do so. The retail, services, health and social care industries are predominantly staffed by women. Most of the roles in these sectors aren't particularly well paid. There's a separate discussion to be had on these kinds of jobs being better paid, but in the meantime, it means it can affect the employment decisions that couples make about who works and who stays at home.

P.S. not everyone who posts on Mumsnet or even on the Feminist boards is a feminist. It's what makes this site interesting compared to others - lots of different perspectives. It's one of the few places women from all walks of life can gather to talk about issues that concern them.

@Floisme

How do we square economic independence with a desire to raise your own child, or even to cut down your working hours to spend time with them?

I don't see how we can.

Before I had a child, I had no idea how strongly I would want to be with them. It blew me away. It felt primal. We found a compromise and muddled through, as most of us do, but I have never found a satisfactory answer to this conundrum from feminism, certainly not from the first feminists I hung out with who were second wavers and treated mothers with little short of contempt.

This is the first feminist space I have found where anyone gets this.

Basically you can’t in a capitalist society. Feminism has to have elements of socialism to truly allow women to be independent while also being mothers. Free childcare and/or a universal basic income (even if means-tested) would be a great place to start. I’ve often thought that instead of child benefit until the kid is 18, would it be more effective to have larger monthly payments for the first, say, 4 years of a child’s life, therefore giving the parent more flexibility as they have more money to live off without having to work full time?

The problem is that society does not accommodate for child bearing. It shouldn’t be the case that women have to make sacrifices once they become mothers but until society works around this and offers support so this doesn’t happen, women will keep falling into this trap unless they’re independently wealthy or earn enough to easily afford full time childcare.

OP, it sounds as if you’re complaining about women themselves, not about marriage.

Single women face prejudice from society and that prejudice mainly comes from other women, married women in particular.

OP, I am absolutely baffled by this. Thank god you have never experienced sexual assault or harassment by a stranger or a date, as women on their own so often do (though women with partners are more at risk of domestic violence). I’m presuming you’ve never encountered it, because you simply couldn’t think we suffer more from other women if you had.

A wedding is one day in a person’s life, and I don’t begrudge anyone wanting to celebrate. The bridesmaid thing sounds very teenaged. I was single throughout my 20s and 30s, but never felt met prejudice for being single. Certainly plenty of prejudice against women!

Sexism harms married women as well as singles. Perhaps you have never seen inefficient men promoted over far more competent women, or earned less than a male colleague because there’s always a way of tweaking job descriptions. Etc.

@TedMullins
I’ve often thought that instead of child benefit until the kid is 18, would it be more effective to have larger monthly payments for the first, say, 4 years of a child’s life, therefore giving the parent more flexibility as they have more money to live off without having to work full time?

I have though similar, only more that it should not end at 18 but continue for as long as they are in FT education (university) and be higher for the university years due to fact most cannot live at home and go to uni.

This not a country where child bearing and rearing is supported in the way that it is, say in Scandanavia. Agree with this Basically you can’t in a capitalist society. Feminism has to have elements of socialism to truly allow women to be independent while also being mothers. Free childcare and/or a universal basic income (even if means-tested) would be a great place to start. I’ve often thought that instead of child benefit until the kid is 18, would it be more effective to have larger monthly payments for the first, say, 4 years of a child’s life, therefore giving the parent more flexibility as they have more money to live off without having to work full time?

Marriage itself gives certain legal benefits but have to say I did it very late in my relationship and mainly for tax reasons. Apparently you cant give permission for life saving surgery unless you are married though - is this true?

And weddings just seem a good way of throwing a few thousand pounds into a large hole in the ground. But maybe I`m just a cynic.

"Competition for men is what’s behind most female to female bullying"

Ha ha ha.

Grow up op come join us in the real world. Why do you hate women so much?
Leave us alone, we've got enough problems without you trying to stir some imaginary pot