Sex work is work

[IamSarah]

It’s telling that this has become a mantra chanted by trans activists. Couldn’t really get more patriarchal.

It got me wondering about captured organisations, in particular rape crisis services.

As some of you know my local rape crisis org is very much ‘trans women are women’ and includes TW in all female group work. Therefore I imagine they also support the ‘sex work is work’ position.

Surely this means they are excluding sex workers from the service? If women are simply ‘working’ then why would anything they experience as sex workers be classed as sexual violence?

This seems very dangerous to me. Quite sinister in fact.

Anyone else see where I’m coming from?

Thank you for that update. I took the figures from
thewww.statista.com/statistics/1102023/number-women-victims-homicide-brazil-type/
and you are quite right, these only contain the numbers known to be killed simply because they are women.

Risk assessments. Maternity leave. Sick pay. Pensions. No idea.

'I understand this to be saying that in countries where selling sex is illegal, anyone working as a prostitute is automatically seen as a victim of sexual violence.'

Oh right

I immediately thought of countries around the world where selling sex is criminalised. And the usually women working as prostitutes are often threatened, coerced, ill treated by police and presumably others because that law combined with general social attitudes makes it very easy to do.

When you think about countries where selling sex is illegal, you don't think of those countries and what it means for those who sell sex?
Is there a reason for that?

I also thought selling sex was legal in Sweden, have I got that wrong? That it was the men who pay who were criminalised.

I think that was a bit too far to go even given your views Marguerita.

It is two things that are totally untrue, and to state them as fact, on a topic as serious as this. Do you go saying saying this sort of thing IRL knowing that most people will just think didn't know that. And put the info in their brain somewhere... It's really not on.

1. Prostitution is NOT illegal in Sweden. That is just plain wrong. I'm SURE you know that. Why say it?

1. Stating that ''I understand this to be saying that in countries where selling sex is illegal, anyone working as a prostitute is automatically seen as a victim of sexual violence.'

Is also just total rubbish. Dangerous rubbish to throw out for whatever reasons.

Google the situation in countries where prostitution is illegal. (IE not Sweden ).

Wiki is a good place to start improving your knowledge on what I know is a massively important topic for you.

Very first entry on the page,

'Prostitution is illegal in the majority of African countries. HIV/AIDS infection rates are particularly high among African sex workers'

Going into countries around the world you surely will realise that when prostitution is illegal. Those selling sex are quite categorically not seen as victims of sexual violence. They are at very high risk of sexual violence including by the police.

I would really like you to explain what you were even thinking/ hoping to achieve with that post. It's totally out of order, even by usual standards.

"I also thought selling sex was legal in Sweden, have I got that wrong? That it was the men who pay who were criminalised"

It's not as simple as that. It's still illegal for sex workers to work together in Sweden (and other countries with the Nordic Model). It's also illegal for landlords to rent to sex workers (which can result in sex workers being evicted and made homeless), and sex workers can (as shown above) be seen as unfit by to be a parent just for selling sex. This implies stigma against sex workers is increased and even if they aren't committing a crime per se they may be harassed by Social Services if they have children.

To say the Nordic Model "decriminalises selling sex" is IMO a very extreme simplification. It isn't just one law it's a set of laws and there's a lot of "small print" details people may not know about.

In Ireland (which has the Nordic Model), women sex workers are being jailed for working together. As of the time of the article (2 years after the law was introduced), only 1 client was charged with paying for sex. So in that 2 year period, more sex workers than clients are being in trouble with the law.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/12/change-law-sex-workers-jailed

A report by the UN HIV and the Law re the situation in Sweden, it's outdated now but it explains that it's very difficult to convict clients because the sex workers are "almost always unwilling to testify against them". Out of all arrests made almost all of them are let off and out of the ones who do make it to court only a tiny minority actually get convicted (usually if they plead guilty, and they just get a small fine). This report also states this is very expensive and leaves less money for other services.

www.hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/default/files/FinalReport-Risks%2CRights%26Health-EN.pdf (p38)

"Prostitution is NOT illegal in Sweden"

ok to clarify it isn't a case of "yes it is" or "no it isn't". The answer is more of a "it's complicated". See my post above.

You have missed the point entirely.

To say in countries where sex work is illegal etc.

And then explain you meant one country (so why not say that in the first place).

Your original statement is at best misleading...

And get revealing. In countries where prostitution is illegal. Multiple countries, a massive number of people working as prostitutes.

You know. The countries where it is illegal. Not one (where it's not illegal and then getting into semantics even though obviously the statement 'prostitution is illegal in sweden' is simply incorrect.

It's just so revealing.

Ignoring everywhere in the world where it's illegal and that illegally caused such huge harm to those working as prostitutes. Who are VERY MUCH NOT seen as victims.

I mean you comment was just totally utterly misleading, I assume on purpose. If not deliberate then it's a stark illustration of how extreme your bias is.

That you don't even ACKNOWLEDGE that you have zero interest in the countries where it is illegal full stop leading to huge harm to people selling sex.

Eye opening.

I'm in agreement criminalisation (of any sort) leads to increased harm, dangers and stigma against the very people we are supposedly trying to protect.

That's why I think decriminalisation (the New Zealand model) is best. This letter, signed by many people and orgs (see bottom of letter for the list), gives an explanation of why they think decrim is better than any of the criminalisation models.

decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

Still no comment as to why you talked about countries where illegal.

And then turned out you meant Sweden. Why say countries and then ignore totally the massive countries with huge numbers of people where it's illegal?

When thinking of prostitution and countries illegal, why did you ignore all those?
Where the group whose situation you want to improve, and specially this exchange it's people in prostitution rather than the wider group 'sex workers'.
Are in such dire situations, partly to do with their criminalisation?

It doesn't make sense.

And now instead of saying why ignore the massive issues in certain countries affecting those you advocate for.

You bring up new Zealand and talk about decrim etc.

That's not the point. Your point was that in countries where prostitution is illegal, there is a negative impact on those selling sex.

It's clear wanted to discuss the 'nordic model' and the fact that countries where prostitution illegal is a massive issue globally didn't even ping on your radar.

Imo, from what you have written.

@IamSarah

It’s telling that this has become a mantra chanted by trans activists. Couldn’t really get more patriarchal.

It got me wondering about captured organisations, in particular rape crisis services.

As some of you know my local rape crisis org is very much ‘trans women are women’ and includes TW in all female group work. Therefore I imagine they also support the ‘sex work is work’ position.

Surely this means they are excluding sex workers from the service? If women are simply ‘working’ then why would anything they experience as sex workers be classed as sexual violence?

This seems very dangerous to me. Quite sinister in fact.

Anyone else see where I’m coming from?

I am extremely confused. How does the phrase "sex work is work", mainly used by cisgendered sex workers on the internet have anything to do with transgender people beyond being grammatically similar to the phrase "Trans women are women" (which they are, by the way)

I am extremely confused

Understatement of the year.

'IamSarah

It’s telling that this has become a mantra chanted by trans activists. Couldn’t really get more patriarchal.'

It's not become a mantra. It's been there from the start.

Not used that I've seen for yonks.

Ages ago, years.

The phrase 'SWERF AND T*RF' was everywhere. It was there from... When it started to get public attention at least. I suspect always linked.

Sex worker exclusionary radical feminists and trans exclusionary radical feminists.

Like surf n turf... Catchy!

From way back it's been clear that sex work is work and trans women are women were so entwined that either support both or neither.

And for years the question has been.

Why on earth these two very different things were, are. Fundamentally linked, can't have one without the other.

And I suppose over time. Other things have been added in.

Just trying to remember. The views that have got added in, over the years.

I think not so universal and clearly less priority than SWIW.

In general though actually loads of stuff introduced. Whether they so universally bedded in, don't know. But certainly there an awful lot.

And they are ALL to do with attacking women. Not just women who say no. All women.

Because obviously all the evil in the world is due to women.
Especially those who don't comply. And if they're middle aged. I mean nothing worse.
Unless they have power and/ or wealth on their side. Those ones are the most dangerous people in the history of the world.

And obviously

• No kink shaming
• Idea sex offences done pretty much totally by males. Is biased/ says all females angels/ leveraging false victimhood/ exclusionary in various ways/ transphobic and lots more

• Children can give informed consent to pretty much anything. Saying no they can't reveals real goal. Which is to attack abortion legality.

• Women and girls have massive privilege over certain males.

I mean I could go on for hours.