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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Have you read the Sex Matters thread on the Law Commission report?

6 replies

bloodycoldagain · 07/12/2021 15:03

It's brilliant. Its looking at what Gires said in their response to the consultation and how the Law Commission have addressed this.
It such a welcome breath of fresh air of clear thinking! Here's a bit:

GIRES said:

“We disagree with the suggestion that trans rights are up for debate, or that people who express insulting or hateful views about trans people should be protected from prosecution under hate crime legislation under sections 29J and 29JA.“

In particular GIRES said it disagreed with Professor Kathleen Stock’s view as given in the Harry Miller case. Mr Justice Julian Knowles had referenced Kathleen Stock in concluding:

“Some involved in the debate are readily willing to label those with different viewpoints as ‘transphobic’ or as displaying ‘hatred’ when they are not. It is clear that there are those on one side of the debate who simply will not tolerate different views, even when they are expressed by legitimate scholars whose views are not grounded in hatred, bigotry, prejudice or hostility, but are based on legitimately different value judgments, reasoning and analysis, and form part of mainstream academic research.”

GIRES told the Law Commission:

“Many of the views she describes are not based on any legitimate empirical research and can only be based on a fear or ignorance about trans people. In other words, we hold that ‘different value judgements’ here amounts to a disdain for the personhood and personal freedom of trans and gender diverse people. We think it would be irresponsible to afford legal protections to people disseminating such views, whatever qualifications they may hold… We think it would be harmful to afford legal protection to people who engage in…‘the discussion or criticism of gender reassignment; treatment for gender dysphoria; provision of and access to single-sex facilities and activities’ because this criticism effectively vilifies and dehumanises transgender people and encourages the public to do the same.”

The Law Commission specifically disagreed:

“We do not agree with GIRES that such discussion necessarily amounts to ‘vilification’ or ‘dehumanises’ trans people, still less that it encourages others to do so. Indeed, we think that characterising it as GIRES does demonstrates the risk that without explicit protection, such discourse – which has been recognised as protected speech – risks being perceived, reported, and potentially investigated as hate speech.”

Sex Matters conclude:
The Law Commission highlighted that the rulings in Miller and Forstater have now made it clear that the expression of “gender critical” views is protected under human rights laws. The issue, therefore, is not whether such expression should be protected, it is whether the stirring-up offences would require a provision to make clear it is protected.”

It concluded that it would.

OP posts:
Datun · 07/12/2021 15:21

TRAs leapt on that judgement about GC being a protected belief, yet again twisting how laws should be applied. They wanted it to mean that even any expression of the belief would be unacceptable.

Which is patently not what the judge meant.

It IS a discussion. There IS a clash of rights. Women DO have legal recourse to criticise all and any of it.

Although, yet again, the foot shooting is spectacular!

As if trying to actually strong arm the bloody Law Commission wasn't enough, they used an argument that the commission consequently employed as the basis to refute it!!!

DoubleTweenQueen · 07/12/2021 15:27

Hoist by their own petard. Good. Nasty bullies.

Manderleyagain · 08/12/2021 13:17

I read some of the report. It's worth clicking through. Gires are clearly scary authoritarian who want to criminalise disagreement with their political position, and the commissioners response was ace.

They decided to recommend a 'for the avoidance of doubt clause rather than a calve out. They suggest saying 'for the avoidance of doubt it is not hate crime to say that sex is binary and immutable' but I don't think that's quite right. It needs more.

They decided against sex/gender or misogyny becoming a hate crime. I'm not convinced by hate crime so I'm not disappointed by this really, but it was interesting they commented that many ppl said it should be sex not gender.

ChattyLion · 08/12/2021 13:24

Is there a link?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 08/12/2021 14:48

So good to see such a firm response to these totalitarian oppressive demands.
It's always notable that when any of the Mumsnet monitors arrive to scold us for speaking without their permission, they always have this same repressive mindset. That no criticism is ever allowed, no matter how extreme or awful the behaviour / issue and no matter what the impact on any other group - even children.

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