Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Many Tory MPs not on board with UK 'Conversion Therapy' proposals

16 replies

hardtobelieve · 04/12/2021 21:04

From the Telegraph: Edward Malnick 4 December 2021
'Teachers ‘risk prosecution’ for discussing gender with pupils
Tory MPs fear that legislation to outlaw gay conversion therapy could see clinicians 'threatened with prison and professional ruin'

'Boris Johnson is facing a Conservative revolt over a "rushed" legal change that senior Tories fear will lead to the prosecution of parents and teachers for helping children who say they are transgender.

MPs and ministers are concerned about proposals to outlaw conversations about the "gender identity" of children, under pressure from Stonewall, the equality charity.

The plans are seen as a little known extension of the Government's plans to outlaw gay conversion therapy, which are not seen as controversial and were first promised by the Conservatives in 2018.

‘Freedom of speech and belief’
A growing number of Conservative parliamentarians fear that also attempting to encapsulate conversion therapy aimed at changing gender identity will criminalise routine conversations between children and parents, teachers or clinicians, and lead to more children undergoing "radical medical or surgical procedures, which they later deeply regret”.
Government sources insisted that gender identity has been part of the proposals since 2018, on the basis that Theresa May promised steps to ban conversion therapy attempting to "cure" lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. In a foreword to the formal consultation document on the changes, Liz Truss, the Foreign Secretary and equalities minister, said that "freedom of choice, freedom of speech and belief" were "central" to the proposals.

But on Saturday night, a series of backbenchers publicly warned the Government to drop the proposals, as they urged the Prime Minister to extend the consultation, which is currently due to end on Friday after little more than a month for people to raise objections.

Baroness Jenkin, the Tory peer who founded Women2Win, the Conservative women's organisation, with Theresa May, said: "Legislation must not make parents, children, teachers and clinicians frightened to talk to each other."

She added: "When a child is suffering, it is crucial that they are allowed time, space and supportive exploratory therapy to discover why they feel the way they do."

‘Trampling over vulnerabilities of children’
Tim Loughton, a former children's minister, said: "This legislation risks trampling over the vulnerabilities of children, many of whom are entering into drug treatments that are life-changing and can also make them sterile."

Damian Green, the former first secretary of state, added: "The Government must extend the consultation period and commit to pre-legislative scrutiny so that this can be thought through properly, rather than simply following Stonewall’s line."

The plan to explicitly outlaw "abhorrent" gay conversion therapies was first announced by Mrs May in 2018, and cited by Carrie Johnson, the Prime Minister's wife, in October as an example of the Prime Minister's commitment to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights. It is being championed by Henry Newman, one of Mr Johnson's senior advisers.

But a growing number of Conservative MPs, peers and government figures fear that the consultation document leaves the door open to teachers, parents, therapists and social workers facing prosecution if they fail to "affirm" the position of those who state that they are transgender.

They are concerned that the Government will create a series of "elephant traps" if it rushes through the legislation in time for an LGBT conference being hosted by Britain next summer. Campaigners are also concerned that the changes would introduce the concept of "gender identity" into law despite ministers earlier dropping plans to allow people to change their gender without a medical diagnosis, amid concerns about the potential impact on children. Nikki da Costa, Mr Johnson's former director of legislative affairs, warned against "rushing" the legislation.

Fears over the move were heightened last week when a new "easy read" summary of the consultation for people with learning disabilities explained that conversation therapy "tries to change your sexual orientation or the gender you want to be".

‘A heavy dose of common sense’
A Government figure said there was concern "the sort of approach described here would force teachers to tell children that they are in the wrong body when they discuss gender." The document was then withdrawn within hours of being published, sparking concerns that people with some disabilities have been shut out of the consultation process.

Lord Goldsmith, the environment minister, warned that it was "so important that we get this legislation right", as he approvingly tweeted an article by a campaigner that warned of the risk of patients, teachers and therapists being "threatened with prison and professional ruin".

The proposals are also opposed by Pauline Latham, the MP for Mid Derbyshire, together with Sally-Ann Hart, Miriam Cates and Ben Spencer, all of whom were among the 2019 intake of Conservative MPs.

Dr Spencer, a former NHS mental health consultant, said: "The law should not dictate what clinicians can or can’t discuss and explore with their patients as part of their treatment ... Otherwise people could suffer irreversible damage from neglecting treatable underlying causes of their distress and receive instead radical medical or surgical procedures, which they later deeply regret."

Ms Cates accused the Government of "cutting corners because of demands from a politically motivated campaign".

A source close to Ms Truss said: "There will be a heavy dose of common sense applied to these proposals and they will be carefully crafted to strike the right balance between protecting under-18s, freedom of speech, and the right of consenting adults to get pastoral support."
Let us hope common sense does indeed prevail and that Liz saves the day for women and children.

OP posts:
DdraigGoch · 04/12/2021 21:09

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/12/04/teachers-risk-prosecution-discussing-gender-pupils/

Looks like there will be a backbench rebellion.

BoredOfSamphire · 04/12/2021 21:18

I expect all the other parties would vote for it though.

Lovelyricepudding · 04/12/2021 21:18

Unfortunately if it gets to parliament then the opposition parties would vote it through.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2021 21:23

Good to see some tory MPs engaged in a bit of critical thinking.
As the opposition parties are champing at the bit to wedge male born rapists and sex offenders into prison cells with vulnerable women, it's unsurprising that they have missed the catastrophic impact on children that the proposals will have.

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2021 21:31

Nikki da Costa. If she's warning there's a problem it will get taken seriously.

Carrie and Newman see this as a pet project. It not been said outright but the talk of running No10 badly and giving poor advice to Johnson is firmly stickylabel to their backs.

There's a few who would be happy to slap the pair down on principle as a result.

CheeseMmmm · 04/12/2021 22:26

Interesting.

As usual the fact that tacking gender on IS going to be contraversial full stop. It's an extremely fraught polarised area. An awful lot of anger, accusations, news inches etc from all 'sides'.

And with many totally different reasons between groups/ individuals for why they think X, across the whole topic as well.

Obviously essentially dropping it in, messaging from govt etc massively focused on gay conversion ban which is uncontroversial to all (except a very small number of people who are so few that saying it's uncontroversial is totally reasonable).

With the proposed law there are a few ??? around lack of uk stats (none if you read the blurb from govt) meaning unable to understand. Size of issue, forms it takes, which areas/ groups happening, is this law the most effective way to tackle issue of gay conversion therapy given no data etc.

That's concern it won't actually help anyone. Hardly saying this is ok! Obviously on net taken as haters etc as per usual.

That's all by the bye it's supported widely.

Including gender? Given the state of the 'debate'? Given the huge questions around what is defined as gender conversion therapy? Given that experts - loads of doctors have opposing views on what approach or set of options to consider is best for people who go to docs about transgender identity? Referred on to gender clinics etc? I mean so much on medical side- disagreement between gender docs, court cases about some treatments. Court cases!

And for parents teachers etc millions of people. Policies angering parents. Internet pushing not to tell parents as they will certainly disown you, be abusive to you etc. Get support from internet rainbow family instead, they will look after you....

CheeseMmmm · 04/12/2021 22:54

The thing that really really grates at me. As a person who likes consistency, rules, things to make sense.

Is that the biggest, totally embedded, ubiquitous, ever present, extremely successful mechanism that works to force strict gender conformity linked to sex.

Is SOCIETY.

Gender norms /roles for male and female are enforced, referenced, reinforced everywhere. All the time. Both subtle and unsubtle reminders everywhere. If too far/ too often a person veers away from the norms, then often others flag it with them. From subtle to overt to angry to violent. The subtle end it's so usual that often neither the person who says something nor the person they say it too even notices that's what's going on.

So if society is the biggest culprit, that causes anything from confusion as a child, to discomfort, to anger by doing this.

Isn't that a bit of an issue when it comes to outlawing application of pressure, coercion, threats etc to massively enforce strict gender role on the whole population?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 04/12/2021 23:06

Anyone who hasn't written to their MP, please take action and ask them to #presspause.

Just in case, there are resources here to help us respond to the government consultation:
www.sex-matters.org/take-action/conversion-therapy-consultation/

www.transgendertrend.com/guide-government-conversion-therapy-consultation/

Tabasco007 · 05/12/2021 00:16

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]Anyone who hasn't written to their MP, please take action and ask them to #presspause.

Just in case, there are resources here to help us respond to the government consultation:
www.sex-matters.org/take-action/conversion-therapy-consultation/

www.transgendertrend.com/guide-government-conversion-therapy-consultation/[/quote]
Thanks I did this earlier, but recommended others do it too

Fallingirl · 05/12/2021 07:36

@CheeseMmmm

The thing that really really grates at me. As a person who likes consistency, rules, things to make sense.

Is that the biggest, totally embedded, ubiquitous, ever present, extremely successful mechanism that works to force strict gender conformity linked to sex.

Is SOCIETY.

Gender norms /roles for male and female are enforced, referenced, reinforced everywhere. All the time. Both subtle and unsubtle reminders everywhere. If too far/ too often a person veers away from the norms, then often others flag it with them. From subtle to overt to angry to violent. The subtle end it's so usual that often neither the person who says something nor the person they say it too even notices that's what's going on.

So if society is the biggest culprit, that causes anything from confusion as a child, to discomfort, to anger by doing this.

Isn't that a bit of an issue when it comes to outlawing application of pressure, coercion, threats etc to massively enforce strict gender role on the whole population?

Quite. Shall we ban any all pressures on girls and women to appear beautiful, sexy or pretty as defined by the male gaze? Shall we ban making comments in a woman’s appearance, as she may not identify as someone who’s worth is measured by how well she lives up to current beauty standards, and so commenting is trying to pressure her into that gender-box?
ChristinaXYZ · 05/12/2021 12:07

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]Anyone who hasn't written to their MP, please take action and ask them to #presspause.

Just in case, there are resources here to help us respond to the government consultation:
www.sex-matters.org/take-action/conversion-therapy-consultation/

www.transgendertrend.com/guide-government-conversion-therapy-consultation/[/quote]
Please do this if you can. And if you have any teachers or therapists in your family/friends - let them know. All the email asks is to pause. They're not lobbying for anything except time to think and make sure this is done right. the consequences of getting this wrong for them and their colleagues could be horrendous.

NorthernNic · 05/12/2021 12:44

Talking about this on LBC now

ChristinaXYZ · 05/12/2021 13:06

And if anyone is on twitter the journalist covering this in the Telegraph today is getting no support

twitter.com/edwardmalnick/status/1467432327458471940

CheeseMmmm · 06/12/2021 00:45

Seems to be support now

AnyOldPrion · 06/12/2021 06:39

Glad to see there’s a rebellion. Our message is obviously reaching its target. It’s surely not certain that the other parties would vote it through? I’m aware of party policies, but not so sure that all the MPs in those parties will be quite so supportive as the party lines suggest. That’s my hope anyway. Either that, or I’d be happy to see it kicked into the long grass as too contentious. Things in the UK have definitely not progressed along the lines transactivists had planned out before we started to object.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page