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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

11 yo DD taught in class that JK Rowling was transphobic

125 replies

amter · 29/11/2021 21:52

So DD shared with me that in their class the teacher raised the JK Rowling vs Emma Watson issue, and the teacher (and most students) were very much of the opinion JK was wrong and Emma Watson in the right when discussing the issues/Emma taking a stand against JK.

FFS, I was worried about this nonsense, luckily DD and I (and DS) have been openly talking about gender stereotypes not defining sex, and that you can't change sex etc for a few years now. DD firmly believes you can't change sex and we have previously discussed what JK actually has said.

The conversation in class was led by a teacher and it arose from being supportive to gay and trans students. DD was saying to me that she supports her friends who are gay (apparently 3 girls in her class of 30, 2 of whom are saying they are also trans). DD wants to support them however she doesn't feel she can say anything at school about believing sex and gender are different and that gender stereotypes don't do anyone any favours. I knew this was coming but honestly did not expect this in year 7 term 1!

Just wanted to vent...

OP posts:
prudencepuffin · 30/11/2021 10:02

Tolerance of those with different beliefs - absolutely covered by the Maya case, though I still dislike that its called "beliefs" but its the best we have at the moment.

SirSamuelVimes · 30/11/2021 10:29

However, among the professional standards a teacher must adhere to is:
- ensuring that personal beliefs are not expressed in ways which exploit pupils’ vulnerability or might lead them to break the law.

And

- not undermining fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect, and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs

I would definitely recommend pushing this angle in discussion with the school, including making reference to ofsted's education inspection framework (the EIF) which means that Ofsted will report & grade the school on their teaching & the pupils understanding of fundamental British Values.

If you don't get any resolution from the school or governors it would be fair to submit a complaint to Ofsted about the school undermining fundamental British Values of the rule of law (gender critical beliefs are protected by the Maya Forstater judgement), individual liberty (coercion to vote "correctly" by teaching staff), and tolerance of others with different beliefs (again, the Forstater judgement has made this view a protected belief - which while I find grating to find biological fact described as a belief, does mean it applies well here.).

Metacat · 30/11/2021 21:01

Long time lurker, first time poster. As such, forgive a cautious disclaimer from a newbie taking a tentative step into unfamiliar territory. I respect others' right to claim a gender identity - I've met transpeople to whom this is quite clearly innate - and acknowledge the possibility that, over time, science may help us to understand this more fully. I'm also appalled by the impact some of the more militant TRA organisations and individuals are having on freedom of speech and women's rights, and am, perhaps, even more disturbed by the lack of critical thought and naive virtue-signalling that sometimes seem to drive this. I don't know if this makes me gender critical or not (I've been wanting to ask!) I'm certainly critical in the sense of taking an academic interest in a hugely complex issue, and I'm critical OF (and increasingly disturbed by) some of what I see happening in relation to it.

Anyway, I'm also a teacher and wanted to put in a word from that perspective. Gender ideology arrived at my school relatively recently, with (so far, quite mild) exhortations to use pronouns and colourful Genderbread powerpoints. We also have some socially transitioning teens. And some of the staff, at least, are finding that navigating this, as professionals with a deep sense of responsibility for the wellbeing of all the children in our care, is exceptionally difficult.

In this context, I think the best starting point is to recognise facts and acknowledge nuance. Both sometimes seem to be side-lined because of their power to problematise any reductive hardline. So, re: the lesson mentioned, I'd start by acknowledging that something may have been lost in translation between the classroom and home and suggest investigating further before taking more decisive action - starting with what's certain. The raw facts seem to be that 1) the daughter came home convinced of the teacher's having taken a "side" & 2) the vote was hands-up. In this context, the best-case scenario does seem to be that it was a badly-handled "debate" in which the teacher unintentionally let her opinions show, making it difficult to impossible for students to formulate and share their own. That's problematic in its own way, but at least it's not cynically deliberate. The worst-case scenario is, yes, that it was the kind of indoctrination suggested above. Frankly, either, in my experience, is eminently possible!

Last but not least, here's another more complex possibility that I can also see, although it does seem very unlikely. The teacher may, personally, have an open-minded respect for JKR... but not have felt able to say so, and, instead, mutilated her explanations in an anxious effort not to offend. I'm not saying I'd excuse this for a second, and it's not something I'd do myself. I've challenged inaccurate and troubling - fundamentally homophobic - material in this area in my own school. But... it really wasn't easy to do this, and careful chats with management are the least of it! It's extraordinarily challenging to navigate these issues under pressure in front of a lively class: to speak spontaneously, manage interruptions and low-level behaviour, monitor 30 students for confusion and insecurities... and all the while to find a way, in my choice of words, to respect all interests equally, whether gay, trans or feminist; to acknowledge the class' precocious "knowledge" of it all, while nurturing a deeper understanding; to juggle conflicting opinions and the bubbling hormones fuelling these... Honestly, each time, I feel a little like Winston leaving Parson's apartment (exit, pursued by a slingshot) because of the sheer volatility surrounding these issues. It's really, REALLY hard. In wanting to advocate, above all, for tolerance, the right to be who you are and freedom of debate, you feel, yourself, horribly constrained. This is why I'd investigate more thoroughly and tread more lightly first (who provided the lesson plan, how long did the teacher have to prepare before delivering it, what's the school's own stance on all this etc.) Teach the school that fact, nuance and empathy matter.

And then, yes, after that, OfStEd & various other suggestions above if the answers justify it, because freedom of speech and thought in our schools matter. So, SO much!

dapsnotplimsolls · 30/11/2021 22:04

Piss poor teaching. I suggest you contact the HOY first. I wouldn't dream of teaching a lesson in such a biased manner.

SolasAnla · 30/11/2021 22:09

@Metacat

The teacher's choice was to have the focus of the debate be about real people.

Not an ideology or a debate topic or how to be kind to school mates.

The teacher allowed the discussion to focus on two named individuals.
Neither of whom were in the room.
Neither of whom were (apparently) known by anyone in the room.
No first party written statements.
The discussion was therefore based on gossip.

The child may not have been correct as to the teachers bias. But she was definitely correct about the teacher's choice to focus on the individuals = bad/good

MsGoodenough · 30/11/2021 22:18

Please complain OP. Teachers like me need parents like you.

KittenKong · 30/11/2021 22:26

So as a teacher - what are the key points and phrases that will get the schools sitting up?

partystress · 01/12/2021 00:02

@Metacat. Thank you for sharing your experience. I am so glad i am no longer teaching. It is a minefield, and teachers have (a) been simultaneously unsupported and taken advantage of, and (b) been done over by the very institutions that should be preserving professional boundaries and enforcing some kind of evidence-led / academic rigour to anything taught. ‘Transphobic’ bullying made its way into the Ofsted handbook at a time when ‘transphobia’ was completely undefined and essentially could encompass any kind of questioning.

Couple that with the fact the vast majority of teachers are people for whom kindness is a core value, the attaching of T to LGB, thus making any protest seem like a call for the resurrection of Section 28, and you have very fertile ground for an ideology which seems to be excused from the usual safeguarding rules.

Ides · 01/12/2021 00:08

J K Rowling does write marvelous books but, sadly, I think she's out of her depth with such discussions. It's a shame, but there we are. There's only so far an uneducated 'common sense' can take you, unfortunately. Great author - but not a learned woman. :(

Waitwhat23 · 01/12/2021 00:10

@ides in which way?

SolasAnla · 01/12/2021 00:17

@Ides

J K Rowling does write marvelous books but, sadly, I think she's out of her depth with such discussions. It's a shame, but there we are. There's only so far an uneducated 'common sense' can take you, unfortunately. Great author - but not a learned woman. :(
🤳 Being a woman takes education.

Well, at least that a novel idea.

Redshoeblueshoe · 01/12/2021 00:37

Just one transphobic sentence Ides ?
We have cake and tea - personally I'm on whiskey

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 01/12/2021 00:41

@Redshoeblueshoe

Just one transphobic sentence Ides ? We have cake and tea - personally I'm on whiskey
Bunbury notices that ides is sharing their opinion of specific women on at least a couple of threads and generally finds women lacking in intellect.

Bunbury is partial to toast if we're offering a convivial tea and chat.

I hope you have a thoughtful invitation to further discussion from the school, OP.

Redshoeblueshoe · 01/12/2021 00:50

Well Hadrosaurus I'm shocked ! WineWineWine

moofolk · 01/12/2021 11:22

@Ides

J K Rowling does write marvelous books but, sadly, I think she's out of her depth with such discussions. It's a shame, but there we are. There's only so far an uneducated 'common sense' can take you, unfortunately. Great author - but not a learned woman. :(
What?
PleasantBirthday · 01/12/2021 11:37

@Ides

J K Rowling does write marvelous books but, sadly, I think she's out of her depth with such discussions. It's a shame, but there we are. There's only so far an uneducated 'common sense' can take you, unfortunately. Great author - but not a learned woman. :(
Since she is a woman, I think we can say she understands what a woman is. You don't need any special certificate to know that.
KittenKong · 01/12/2021 12:29

A learned woman? What’s one of those when they are at home? Sounds like a Harry Enfield sketch (women, know your place! Discuss only puppies, kittens, and scatter cushions)

SammyScrounge · 01/12/2021 13:01

[quote SolasAnla]@Metacat

The teacher's choice was to have the focus of the debate be about real people.

Not an ideology or a debate topic or how to be kind to school mates.

The teacher allowed the discussion to focus on two named individuals.
Neither of whom were in the room.
Neither of whom were (apparently) known by anyone in the room.
No first party written statements.
The discussion was therefore based on gossip.

The child may not have been correct as to the teachers bias. But she was definitely correct about the teacher's choice to focus on the individuals = bad/good[/quote]
Neither was the appalling persecution of JKR (and others) by vicious trans activists mentioned.
Neither was the impact of gender ideology on the lives of girls and women mentioned.
These things make a debate; going into a class and saying JKR is transphobic without providing a context isn't.

CrispAndFrosty · 01/12/2021 13:11

Pfffft. Shaking my head and snorting with laughter at one recent post. Such a shame, but there we are... So sad, as a great man might say. SAD.

Women, know your limits!

EarthSight · 01/12/2021 18:19

Why is her teacher sharing her person political opinions like this? Their job is to get students debating and talking, not sharing their own stance as this can affect the debate.

CoachBeardless · 01/12/2021 20:13

@Ides Eh?

amter · 03/12/2021 17:42

Thanks to (nearly) everyone for such helpful comments.

I thought I would update you. Turns out it was the Deputy Head who runs these classes.

A similar approach to Metacats felt comfortable to me so I sent a fairly innocuous email asking for the lesson information and additional context. I am still waiting for a response from the school but will chase up next week. I am going to take a soft approach until I can perhaps see the lesson plan information (or whatever they will share with me). I don't want to alienate the teachers/deputy head at the outset of year 7 :)

OP posts:
Metacat · 03/12/2021 18:17

Thanks for sharing OP. Good luck!

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 03/12/2021 18:26

Deputy Head. Shock

dapsnotplimsolls · 03/12/2021 18:39

Jayus.

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