HSBC advert: gender should never be a barrier to opportunity

[InvisibleDragon]

Came across a billboard with this HSBC advertising campaign on it the other day (see the picture - not the billboard I saw, but a similar image from facebook). Was initially mildly irritated at the continued conflation of sex and gender.

But then I noticed something else. In this case, "gender" isn't being used as a euphemism for "sex", it means gender identity.

The people in the images are both (presumably) non-binary men or trans women and the web page links to details about how to change your bank account to have gender neutral title:
www.hsbc.co.uk/opportunity/

www.hsbc.co.uk/help/banking-made-easy/change-of-gender/

I have no issue with HSBC wanting to make life easier for people with a non-binary gender identity (presumably you can also be addressed as Reverend or Rabbi in line with other beliefs). But I really don't like the use of "gender" to mean just the state of having a non-binary / trans gender identity. This feels like a further step in making it harder to name women as a (sex) class. First we had gender as a euphemism for sex. Then we had gender meaning basically gender identity or sex as preferred. This advert is using gender to mean "minority gender identity." (i.e. trans or non binary) Combined with the taboo around naming biological sex as a sex class, this feels concerning.

I'm now also side-eyeing the euphemism "gender based violence," which is becoming increasingly popular in Scotland as a replacement for "violence against women and girls."

Have I gone full tin-foil hat here, or is this worth taking notice of?

then feminists campaigned to change that

Feminists didn't campaign for that

@Gncq

I thought their whole deal was that sex was just physically differences and gender was stuff that was “learned” like wearing dresses/make up etc and that the sexes would be pretty much the same if “gender” was t forced on us etc.

Basically that women and men’s differences aren’t inherently in their minds? I don’t agree but I thought that was their position?

@InvisibleDragon

Came across a billboard with this HSBC advertising campaign on it the other day (see the picture - not the billboard I saw, but a similar image from facebook). Was initially mildly irritated at the continued conflation of sex and gender.

But then I noticed something else. In this case, "gender" isn't being used as a euphemism for "sex", it means gender identity.

The people in the images are both (presumably) non-binary men or trans women and the web page links to details about how to change your bank account to have gender neutral title:
www.hsbc.co.uk/opportunity/

www.hsbc.co.uk/help/banking-made-easy/change-of-gender/

I have no issue with HSBC wanting to make life easier for people with a non-binary gender identity (presumably you can also be addressed as Reverend or Rabbi in line with other beliefs). But I really don't like the use of "gender" to mean just the state of having a non-binary / trans gender identity. This feels like a further step in making it harder to name women as a (sex) class. First we had gender as a euphemism for sex. Then we had gender meaning basically gender identity or sex as preferred. This advert is using gender to mean "minority gender identity." (i.e. trans or non binary) Combined with the taboo around naming biological sex as a sex class, this feels concerning.

I'm now also side-eyeing the euphemism "gender based violence," which is becoming increasingly popular in Scotland as a replacement for "violence against women and girls."

Have I gone full tin-foil hat here, or is this worth taking notice of?

This is the company that used to make women resign when they got married to ‘reapply’ for their jobs in their married names (ruining their pensions). Also the same company thst only recently (5-10 years ago?) let female managers work p/t after maternity. Before that they had to get demoted to clerical positions no matter how senior they were. So to be frank I don’t give a flying fuck what they think about gender.

Why should I care if the nail salon would rather not hire the bearded bodybuilder or some men’s soccer club won’t have women administrators?

🤣 Yeah, why should women care when no one wants to hire them because they have female bodies... Not the employers fault a woman might fall pregnant. Sack the b*tches I say.

Banks probably love it when men identify as women. It means they improve their male to female ratios in senior roles without ever employing any women.

@Gncq

I’m just saying so long as there’s a chance for us to get payed employment I don’t care if some workplaces are mainly male or female. It’s for the best.

[quote TarasCrazyTiara]@Gncq

I thought their whole deal was that sex was just physically differences and gender was stuff that was “learned” like wearing dresses/make up etc and that the sexes would be pretty much the same if “gender” was t forced on us etc.

Basically that women and men’s differences aren’t inherently in their minds? I don’t agree but I thought that was their position?[/quote]
There's a misconception that people think feminists campaigning for "equality" means feminists want everyone to be the same.

Men and women are different. That's pretty much central to feminism.

Feminists never campaigned to change the definition of gender. It's usage changed long before the women's liberation movement began.

Gender was used to mean "feminine/masculine" as far back as 1474 according to the OED, then evolved into euphemism for sex as in birth sex in the late 1800s.

In this brave new world it is often the case that all the images are of males. The ruling sex have created a way to claim they are diverse whilst excluding women

Ozanj
This is the company that used to make women resign when they got married to ‘reapply’ for their jobs in their married names (ruining their pensions). Also the same company thst only recently (5-10 years ago?) let female managers work p/t after maternity. Before that they had to get demoted to clerical positions no matter how senior they were. So to be frank I don’t give a flying fuck what they think about gender.

Well quite, the bank with one of the worst records for treatment of female employees is the first to ditch even a fig leaf of gender/sex based good practice for a definition of gender that benefits men and their bottom line.

I think sometimes we forget that women didn't win more rights by convincing companies that it was the nice/kind thing to do. They won by forcing companies to comply with legal obligations to not discriminate on the basis of sex.

Repent
I spotted that!
100% of these "HSBC gender opportunity people" are of the penis having variety.
How interesting.....

@CrossPurposes

It might be easier if we just did away with titles. I've always been puzzled that they are often a required field and never satisfied with any reason given for that requirement.

how the actual fuck are you supposed to pronounce some of those???

@Magistera

the web page links to details about how to change your bank account to have gender neutral title Funny because I wanted to change my bank account to the gender neutral “Dr Magistera” and they wouldn’t let me! They said I had to make an appointment and provide written evidence of my eligibility to use that title.

I had enough trouble trying to make them change me from Miss to Ms. Had to complain as they kept asking for a marriage certificate I didn’t have.

Why the hell have they never managed to change my credit card from Mrs to Ms - I have asked a million times!!! Perhaps I would have more luck if I asked them to change it to Mr.

@TinyTear I know. I was particulary wondering how one is supposed to pronounce 'Pr'. Like Mr??

[quote malanimo]@TinyTear I know. I was particulary wondering how one is supposed to pronounce 'Pr'. Like Mr??[/quote]
That was one of the ones that stumped me... and the single M Monsieur like in French? or M like James Bond?

Someone getting their title changed to Mx on their bank account and bank statement isn't going to cause civilisation to collapse. If i change my title to Mx it isn't going to affect anyone here, but i might do it and see if governments, laws, society starts crumbling like it's made out. Gc could even get their title changed to gc or xx or xy, whichever takes your fancy.

@InvisibleDragon

Now, I sort of agree that we should say sex when we mean biological sex, rather than using a euphemism - and the comments in the HoL sound very positive.

However, I think there is still a value to separating innate biological differences from stereotypes / learned differences. If we talk about the sex pay gap it encourages us to see disparities as innate and fixed. If we talk about the gender pay gap, it reminds us to consider the wider structural and cultural barriers that women face.

I agreeand this is why gender based violence is an appropriate phrase- but perhaps more in an academic context

@anaily

Someone getting their title changed to Mx on their bank account and bank statement isn't going to cause civilisation to collapse. If i change my title to Mx it isn't going to affect anyone here, but i might do it and see if governments, laws, society starts crumbling like it's made out. Gc could even get their title changed to gc or xx or xy, whichever takes your fancy.

Yes. Our civilisation and laws are very much built around keeping males on top and I quite agree that changes to titles at the bank are unlikely to bring down anything that benefits males so much.

I recently opened a second bank account with a new bank to keep a little money aside for something.

During the application, one of the questions was something like"How do you prefer to be addressed?"

There was a whole variety of titles, but I took the opportunity to really consider how I would ideally prefer to be addressed. In the end I chose the "other" option and was able to input my own choice into the text box. I was pretty gobsmacked when the debit card arrived complete with this title before my name!

@purplebutterflybiscuits

I recently opened a second bank account with a new bank to keep a little money aside for something.

During the application, one of the questions was something like"How do you prefer to be addressed?"

There was a whole variety of titles, but I took the opportunity to really consider how I would ideally prefer to be addressed. In the end I chose the "other" option and was able to input my own choice into the text box. I was pretty gobsmacked when the debit card arrived complete with this title before my name!

You've erased everyone now by the looks of it. Society is crashing, the looting will start. Hsbc has doomed humanity with this. How does proving the card is yours work? Won't the details be mismatching?

anaily

As I said in the OP, I don't object to additional titles being made available for people with a non-binary gender identity.

What I dislike is the way in which the word "gender" is being used here to refer to cis/trans status. Particularly when referring to biological sex and gender stereotypes is framed as bigoted and offensive.

@PoisonCrystal

We need to keep fighting against this.

We do. It's deeply embedded, though. For instance, I'm watching a work webcast about Anti-Bullying Week at the very moment. The Head of EDI had a slide that listed "Sex" as a protected characteristic. However, later on in his presentation he said "Gender" instead.

@PoisonCrystal I think we work for the same organisation. I was watching it too and thinking 'surely I'm not the only one watching this and rolling my eyes?!'

I also noted the reference to 'those who identify as female'.

To be honest I am too scared to actually.use the card!

@purplebutterflybiscuits

To be honest I am too scared to actually.use the card!

Why, did you put your title as She who must be obeyed, or The Lord High Executioner or something?

I'm curious to know what you decided on Purple