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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans lobby group Stonewall brands lesbians 'sexual racists' for raising concerns about being pressured into having sex with transgender women

13 replies

FindTheTruth · 21/11/2021 02:50

By JOSEPHINE BARTOSCH FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10225111/Stonewall-brands-lesbians-sexual-racists-raising-concerns-sex-transgender-women.html

EXTRACT:
"In her email, Kelley suggested that the BBC article would end up being ‘transphobic’ because it represented trans women as ‘sexual predators’, which was a ‘central anti-trans argument’.

She further complained that the ‘highly toxic’ cotton ceiling issue was ‘analogous to issues like sexual racism’.

And although she acknowledged that in sexual relationships ‘consent is paramount and we all want who we want’, she added that ‘structural oppression can influence who we want’.

OP posts:
CheeseMmmm · 21/11/2021 03:12

Interesting. Shame no evidence of email included. Without, can just be called lies.

Thing is that equating anything is met with that's the same is racism/ the frequent use of the word segregation for single sex things and lots more has been very very standard for a long time.

Arguments/ concepts/ terms/ experiences from other groups have been a constant for those arguing that gender> sex for ages.

And often used back at the groups who those things came from.

The constant pervasive use of. Comparison to other groups (appropriating their struggles and history), the linking to other groups as well to position as same issues (intersectional feminism, lgb etc). Combined with no debate, catchphrases, and the use of stats which are misleading (eg worldwide but not mentioning that, incorrect stats esp about children, suicide going against Samaritans protocols). The constant moving of goalposts, including changing things and then saying they were always that way.

All just adds up to the arguments not having any chance of standing on their own merits.

FindTheTruth · 21/11/2021 06:06

#IStandWithLesbians is trending on Twitter

twitter.com/hashtag/IStandWithLesbians?f=live

OP posts:
Whitefire · 21/11/2021 08:09

I think the phrase "if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging" should be applied here. Every time NK speaks she just makes the situation worse.

No one is buying it anymore, SW are just making themselves look more and more out of touch.

JellySaurus · 21/11/2021 17:55

So often it is unclear to people who the females are and who the males are, when 'trans' labels are used. This article explains it several times. But then says

This is sometimes referred to as ‘the cotton ceiling’ – a distasteful reference to underwear suggesting that trans women are systematically blocked from having sexual relationships with biological females.

Completely removing the name 'women' from the only women in that sentence!

barleybadminton · 21/11/2021 20:49

@FindTheTruth

By JOSEPHINE BARTOSCH FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10225111/Stonewall-brands-lesbians-sexual-racists-raising-concerns-sex-transgender-women.html

EXTRACT:
"In her email, Kelley suggested that the BBC article would end up being ‘transphobic’ because it represented trans women as ‘sexual predators’, which was a ‘central anti-trans argument’.

She further complained that the ‘highly toxic’ cotton ceiling issue was ‘analogous to issues like sexual racism’.

And although she acknowledged that in sexual relationships ‘consent is paramount and we all want who we want’, she added that ‘structural oppression can influence who we want’.

Interestingly the person behind the survey which led to the BBC atice is quite adamant that sexuality is socially constructed:

"In my opinion, political lesbianism is the most women inclusive movement within feminism. It argues
every women is shaped and oppressed by hetero-patriarchy.and that it is possible for every women
to fight that conditioning and escape what patriarchy has build us and name us for.
The idea of an essential sexuality on the other hand is an invention of patriarchy. That some women
are innately straight and some other women (a minority) are innately lesbians both serve the
patriarchy. "

lesbianhistorygroup.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/angela-c-wild-lesbian-ethics-part-4.pdf

Seems like genital preferences are pro-patriarchy.

JellySaurus · 21/11/2021 21:32

Seems like genital preferences are pro-patriarchy.

In men, too, or only in women?

MrGHardy · 21/11/2021 21:44

"Sexual racists".

At this point they are nothing but a joke.

barleybadminton · 21/11/2021 21:55

@JellySaurus

Seems like genital preferences are pro-patriarchy.

In men, too, or only in women?

You'll have to ask Angela Wild from GettheLout about that, she only claims in that article that no woman is born heterosexual, I have no idea what she thinks about men.
OldCrone · 21/11/2021 21:55

Interestingly the person behind the survey which led to the BBC atice

I assume that's a typo and you mean the BBC article. Have you read it? If so, you would know that there was no 'survey which led to' it. This is what the author of the article says about what prompted her to write it:

I became aware of this particular issue after I wrote an article about sex, lies and legal consent.

Several people got in touch with me to say there was a "huge problem" for lesbians, who were being pressured to "accept the idea that a penis can be a female sex organ".

So it was a number of lesbians getting in touch with her about this issue, not a survey, which led to her writing the article.

Read it for yourself here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

CheeseMmmm · 22/11/2021 03:17

I really think the innate/ social conditioning views around sexuality are interesting but not useful when applied to other topics such as this in the here and now.

Because

  1. It is impossible to know what sexuality would look like in a world where patriarchy/ enforced heterosexuality (though history and still globally whether literally forced and punished if not, or though heterosexuality being just the assumption, standard through the vast majority of people, plus all media, plus religions etc with hostility expressed openly or subtly everywhere about not being heterosexual). If for these millions of years we'd have been totally not caring or noticing etc sexuality, to the point there maybe weren't even terms for who you fancy. Men and women always equal. Zero concept of men and women having fundamental differences in sexual behaviour (!?). Zero stuff around paternity (!), and probably other stuff... Well no one can imagine that except as a fantasy.
  1. Everyone only knows their own brain and how they experience the world. And it's natural to generalise this. I'm not criticising anyone. It's normal and apples to everyone about everything. An example unrelated. O read a thread on MN a couple years back about aphantasia. I have that. I had literally and totally NO IDEA that most could actually get images in their head. Not just black nothing. A massive revelation!
Similarly when younger I didn't get at all how most girls and women I knew didn't notice/ care about assumptions made and ways treated because female. I thought. Young and certain. They're ignoring for an easy life. They don't want to go against the crowd. They've been socialised into not seeing. Well that's not true at all. But at the time I was so sure!

So the various views on sexuality are really interesting. They also lead to MASSIVE rows on certain feminist groups. And they are irrelevant entirely when it comes to whether lesbians can have penises.

Imo.

CheeseMmmm · 22/11/2021 03:34

When it comes to homosexual women being told that they are... Genital fetishists... Transphobic... That their feelings are 'problematic' and they should work to correct that...

The complex sexuality argument between women esp lesbians in niche radical feminist groups is a red herring.

Because...

Pretty much everyone knows that 'lesbian' porn for male gaze has always been vv popular. Back to magazines, and even old oil paintings featuring women in see through/ no clothes.

Well known fantasy real life for men is him with 2 or more women. And not like a queue! But including the women behaving sexually with each other.

List ticking is hardly unusual with men and sex.

Seeing getting a woman into bed as a win/ triumph etc is not unusual. 'conquests' is a term used for a reason.

++++

Men and boys coercing women and girls when it comes to sex is an accepted norm. There's a line where most people say too far. But. Badgering. Begging. Persuading. Pressuring. Saying it hurts them in some way if no. All that stuff. Is seen as just one of those things.

So those are the things that for me are the focus. As most people men and women. Know this stuff as true.

Stopthisnow · 22/11/2021 12:58

structural oppression can influence who we want

We don’t know how women’s sexuality would develop if we didn’t live in a male dominated society.

What we do know is women’s oppression by men is a sexual oppression, that men want to use women for reproductive purposes, and view women as sexual objects. We know that men can and do use to force, coercion and manipulation to get women to have sex with them. For example, men rape women, have claimed women as property and exchanged their daughters in marriage with other men, and have kept women out of the workplace so women would be dependant on partnering with men to survive. We know men ‘correctively’ rape lesbians. We also know that men socialise women to prioritise men, to highly value men, to empathise with men above themselves and other women, to defer to men and to romanticise men, in order that women will fulfil the roles men have allocated to women, i.e. wife/mother to his children and sexual object. This is coercion and manipulation. Psychologists who adopt a behavioural model believe all behaviour is a product of environmental influences. They have proven in many experiments, that by manipulating the environment they can get animals and people to behave in a certain way, it is called operant/instrumental conditioning. Their experiments have also demonstrated, that when something is repeatedly paired with something pleasurable, it can become associated with pleasure and trigger a pleasurable response by itself, it is called classical/Pavlovian conditioning. Psychologists who adopt a cognitive social learning model understand that conditioning, observation of others, internal mental states and society all influence how one develops their personality and likes/dislikes. What feminists like Angela are saying, is that men coerce and manipulate women and the environment so they can get what they want from women, which is sex and/or a partner to birth their offspring.

In Angela’s study males coerced and manipulated young lesbian women into having sexual contact with them. Those males were displaying the same male sexual entitlement, coercion and manipulation towards lesbians as other males do. Therefore, the study supports Angela’s previous article, that males coerce and manipulate women into having sex with them. Those who claim or imply lesbian women denying males sexual access to their bodies, is due to lesbians structurally oppressing heterosexual males, would be engaging in extreme DARVO and a massive patriarchal reversal. It is heterosexual males who try to coerce and manipulate lesbian women into having sex with them, they are the very worst of sexually entitled coercive, manipulative males.

AnFiadhRua · 22/11/2021 13:02

So everybody gets to choose who they are and who they would have sex with except women and then it's ''highly toxic''

Gay men won't be doing anything they don't want. Nor will straight men.

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